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For all tanks ^^ -> real emotions (Fuuuuuuuuuhh.-.)

Discussion in 'Toram Online Class Discussions' started by Lucifere, Jun 23, 2018.

  1. Amaymon

    Amaymon Well-Known Member

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    Teach us potato tanks:D
     
  2. Jbazt

    Jbazt Into the Forsaken Realm of Consciousness Elite Member

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    At its first days im doing it as well when i was trying to test the waters. Sometimes tank cant noticed it and on random party, there's a lack of communication from dps. Yes on that boss a tank who doing what i posted will only be a burden than a help. I also kicked a tank just recently because of it.
     
  3. Ericksson

    Ericksson Well-Known Member

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    Communication really is key. But the thing is, most dps dont really care. Since all they do is mash a button and move to a non-red zone. This is mostly true for the uber dps (the ones with all the gear already). The ones with just sub-par gear are the ones who usually listen.

    Aggro-management
    Prorator
    (proration management specially if some dps just won't listen and carelessly spam)
    Interrupting (not just mindlessly spam stun, tumble, flinch, etc)
    (e.g. knowing that Ifrid is targeting the finale user at the back with the blue aoe and hitting it with flinch and suffering the whirling attack for the team)
    MP management
    Buffer and Reviver
    Protector
    (guardian really helps reduce damage, and we move to protect the melee dps)
    also in charge of misdirecting enemy aoe from long-ranged dps.

    And all of that is just on top of the boss tactics that we study so religiously.

    It's not easy being a tank.
     
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  4. Alzarith

    Alzarith Elite Member Elite Member

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    Just get 100% ailment resist and high Ampr and tanking becomes the easiest thing ever. All you need to do is use pdef and auto and generate a little Aggro once in a while outside of pdef
     
  5. Ericksson

    Ericksson Well-Known Member

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    True.

    What I am trying to get across is the role itself, not gear.
    It's always easier with better gear and that is for all classes not just tanks.

    And what you just pointed out is 3 of the things that tanks need to do. Aggro management, Mp management and Proration.

    If a DPS dies, sure you're still alive, but the battle will take longer and we all know how impatient DPS peeps are. Comes the role of the Reviver for the tank.

    Finale user charges up. You carelessly just shukuchi into the boss. Knowing the finale user will just charge from the get go, and you just spam ur guardian-aggro combo. Finale dies due to an aoe, rest of the party will just twiddle their thumbs while waiting for the revive. Misdirection, tanks misdirect fire.

    Protector - the guardian skill is a boon if used correctly. helps the melee dps with their ampr, and reduces damage taken significantly. So us tanks need to move at least enough for the dps to get that buff without compromising their position (keeping in mind that our positioning determines AOEs, see misdirection). Helps aggro and helps reduce theirs. we also buff when needed, knowing which skill to use in a boss fight helps you and your team (protection and aegis).

    Interruptor - we interrupt at the most opportune moments. DPS is mid combo or finale is mid charge, but is at risk of dying due to a fatal hit, we hit flinch or stun or tumble depending on the situation (keeping in mind which interruption is better since other bosses are sensitive hence the study of boss movements).

    What you good sir are saying is for the ubers, which not a lot of people are at yet. Yes it is easy to survive, but to "tank"? I would respectfully say it is not an easy task.

    When you're uber? "We don't need a tank" is the most common saying that goes around.
     
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2018
  6. Alzarith

    Alzarith Elite Member Elite Member

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    You need a tank for nightmare and ulti mode bosses, also makes some minibosses a HELL of a lot easier even as an "uber" in a party of "ubers". But yeah I suppose you're right. In my opinion, it is not the tank's job to keep dps in guardian. You don't have time to keep your dumb dps inside the aura, if they know you've got it they'll do it themselves. Even if they don't you should be able to hold aggro without it anyway. Berserk and War cry alone are enough to hold aggro from the most spammy dps. It also isn't your job to make the dps avoid aoe. That's on them. Misdirection is important though, something as simple as making the boss face the opposite way of the dps is enough to save a lot of trouble. Any aoe that targets them individually, and it's no longer your fault. And you can get 100% ailment resist with sub-par gear and play the role easily, you just need to be good enough with perfect defense and rampage.

    You're not wrong about what you said earlier either. Those are good tips for beginners, but I don't think tanking is really all that hard.
     
  7. Ericksson

    Ericksson Well-Known Member

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    Being a tank in my opinion, is taking on the mantle of protecting the party. Taking upon yourself what is needed to help the party shine.
    We are supposedly the symbol of chivalry and benevolence.

    I guess it's just me. I embody the tank itself as I played a tank all of the time, mmos, mobas, etc. I make it a point to protect the team.

    And it's satisfying to me to hear member's say "thanks for saving me back there, if you hadn't flinched the boss, I would've died." and similar stuff. I even sneak removing debuffs from kairiki spammers.

    I know in this game, it's not always my job to do so. I just feel that I need to, I feel it's more fun that way.

    But thanks for your opinion, I already have a full MTL tank btw :)
     
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  8. Draco57

    Draco57 Well-Known Member

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    The future is here blood bite tank is here xD
     
  9. Yunan

    Yunan Not Enough Salt Elite Member

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    There is no one absolute "perfect" way to tank, and you can't be satisfied enough just to hold the aggro. You need to keep optimizing and be better for each boss you are up against. I think that what makes a good tank is how he could find the best possible outcome and adapts for every new possible solution. That's what I'm focusing on my build. Versatility and survivability. Multiple set of gears for many situations. Im still new to the art of tanking itself, so I start out with finding the most flexible build and gears to cope up with it. I have ampr-focused gears. Aggro gears. Max ailment gears. Max guard rate gears. And a set of combos that often modified depending on your need. That's why I find people who asks "what's your combo" perplexing to me, as it shows your lack of basic understanding of the fundamentals, or at least what you want and what you need as a tank. So my answer to that question, "what's your combo?" Would be
    "What do you need the most? How do you want it to be?"
     
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  10. Yunan

    Yunan Not Enough Salt Elite Member

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    But you still got to tell him/her on their mistake... or how they could improve. I once partied up a tank as a mage on wandering wheel. Because I had my tank capped first, I know how you could kill it effectively. Most of people knows the basic mechanics of WW, but blindly use stops and let the boss wanders freely. So I just told them how they could be better at it. Stuffs that most DPS players and even tanks often missed. That is what comes from observation and experience. I try not to sound overbearing when I gave advices. And its a great feeling when it works and you are appreciated for it. But well, if theyre being a smartass and still do whatever they want, that's when I kick them out or I leave the party. I'm a timid person so it struck me hard when I did something wrong and no one told me my mistakes
     
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2018
  11. Yunan

    Yunan Not Enough Salt Elite Member

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    Hmm, dunno about that. As a tank I think that what you need the most is damage mitigation instead of HP recovery(and don't forget aggro management). Even then it kinda solved by p.def HP heal. Sure you can get some advantage over traditional pure tank but you really need to do some specific modification to make it work. And I feel like its not worth it. You need critical gears, critical buffs, less HP, and possibly lower aggro. Many fractionals hits hard and wont be solved with higher hp pool. But some physicals/magical attacks hits hard too. I don't really want to have something like, 10k HP just to be able to use bloody bite heal, or be able to break boss parts by myself
     
  12. Suondei

    Suondei Well-Known Member

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    I've my builds on tank and I shared too. VIT BS never better than a full tank unless the tank doesn't know anything about game. There're noob tanks, even I get aggro with sneak atk.

    And tank
    -should not kill prorate
    -not die
    -if not necessary don't move boss a lot (except moving skills)
    -make boss use deadly skills at other side from DPS :D
     
  13. xxxdsmer

    xxxdsmer Member

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    First off.. a tank should be doing things that benefit the tank's survival. Tank surviving means boss doesn't go after you (assuming you can manage your agro). Tank surviving also means you survive.. IF you don't stand in the fire (that'd be red or blue on the floor)
    Second: don't use long combos when you know there'll be blue circles dropping at your feet, or time your combo start better. Bosses don't listen when tanks say hey boss just don't drop blue circles at the feet of the dps that are doing long combos. Ya wanna fight bosses? Ya gotta dance.

    It is not a tank's responsibility to bend over backwards to make the fight a cakewalk for everyone else. Make the fight easier by taking the brunt of boss's high damage attacks sure. Tank's there to get the boss's attention and take the hits dps are too squishy to take. Also point boss attacks away from dps as best they can. Like titeres.. I've seen "tanks" literally just run circles around that boss... /facepalm. lol. The good tanks are the ones that, through their positioning, establish a danger zone where something like titeres's long red line will always go. Then the dps that are dancing, know the area they can dance in without that long red line (or comparable pointable boss attack) dropping at their feet.

    I will say though that using prot (and I'm guessing only prot) on a boss that has rather high magic damage (like venena) - would be suicidal.

    Boolieve it or not: dps do need to know the bosses too. If don't know the boss.. how to dance with it? Yeah.. gonna end up standing in the fire. lol
     
  14. xxxdsmer

    xxxdsmer Member

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    #1 there.. if there's 2 or 3 phys dps in the party, there's already no proration to kill lol. Especially if at least 2 are bow/bowgun
     
  15. Yunan

    Yunan Not Enough Salt Elite Member

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    You meant, magic DPS? Tanks use either buffs or physical skills and only few skill like mpact for magic proration. 2 physical DPS will have less damage Cuz tanks kills the proration
     
  16. xxxdsmer

    xxxdsmer Member

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    most of the time the only proration a tank could "kill" is physical. If all the dps are magic then tank's actually helpin them out by using physical skills. At any rate.. when anyone in a party does anything that damages the target - they affect proration.

    & 2 physical dps will kill their own proration, especially if they're both bow/bg spamming 1mp combos involving quickdraw and decoy shot. That bit about "cuz tanks kills the proration"... lemmie ask you this: is it possible to kill something that's already dead?

    & on tank using impact.. 23 skill points deep in magic skills.. when there's soooo much to spend skill points on already? I can't imagine many tanks go for impact while leaving off things like force&mag shield (HP as well as phys and mag resist), heavy armor skills for more guard rate & power, prot&aegis&guardian, buster blade & bloody bite bc heck with needing to have hundreds of HP pots (eb/revita..which no one, or not many, will provide to the tank in exchange for not "killing" "their" proration).

    & yes I did say bloody bite.. I'm not gonna be a 1dmg meatsack lol
     
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2018
  17. Yunan

    Yunan Not Enough Salt Elite Member

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    I believe tanks should also focus on party's overall efficiency, in easier bosses, such as venena for example, having a tank isn't a necessity, sure it will be a tad easier since you have someoene to redirect the laser, and do auto attacks but other than that, you're basically being carried by the DPS classes. Don't be satisfied to only mind your own survival and redirecting attacks, as much as a tank is needed. Fundamentally you can brute force most of bosses. A tank will only be a necessity the higher the danger level of the boss' skill pattern. As a DPS class, your focus is to strategize your combo, timing, positioning and maximize your damage output. As a tank, you need to mind your party's survival, positioning, proration, crowd control/interruption. Also as the one closest to the boss, tanks are the one who knows the most when it comes to boss patterns and the type of the attacks.
    How do you even know whether the physical proration is dead or not? Tanks that use physical skills will further fasten the process. So why do some tanks "kills" the proration in the first place? The answer is they need to hold the boss by generating aggro heavy skills which in most cases, are physical skills like rage sword, meteor breaker, binding strike, etc

    Edit: I see what you meant by the no proration to kill. Maybe the better way to word it is that tanks potentially make it "stays" dead by spamming the physical skills. But in a way you also can see it as you are killing the "future" proration Cuz you halt its growth.
     
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2018
  18. Yunan

    Yunan Not Enough Salt Elite Member

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    I mentioned impact Cuz some tank builds uses finale as a canceller and yea I too, think its not worth it. A next gen tank would be a tank that can do some damage too. So Impact will most likely be on those builds
     
  19. xxxdsmer

    xxxdsmer Member

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    Tanks are never carried. Put 4 cf/finale on venena or just about any boss (not talking low level stuff) and one of them will not be able to use their big damage skill anyway.. so still end up with only 3 dps in a party. In the same thought I'll also say tanks don't carry others either. A party is a team.. not any one person or role with oh hey look these others just happen to be here lol.
    Far as me minding my survival and misdirection of boss attacks.. that's what tanks should be focused on in any mmorpg. Just as useless as a dead dps is - same goes for a dead tank. And if misdirection isn't done right then dps end up dead.. like venenas laser of doom should be pointed right down the middle most of the time so the dps can take out the stuff on the sides.. but a lot of the time, especially without a tank, that huge laser gets pointed at the things on the sides and people die.

    Far as me using physical skills.. yes I will be. Because ain't no one gonona help insanely high pot consumption that would come from me playing like many dps think I should.. which means it'd be on me to go farm or buy literally hundreds of energy bottle or similar. So yes I'll be using P.def, buster blade, and bloody bite as needed - instead of spending more than half my time farming hp pots directly or farming other things to sell just to get hp pots.
    far as anyone using any skills.. spam is always a bad idea - tank or not. Unless perhaps have an equal balance of physical and magic characters in the party lol.. or maybe even character damage type leaning a bit toward magic because some physical classes can fire off skills a lot faster.. either way there'd need to be a certain balance in the party to enable spammage.

    ============================================================================

    And to save making a second post, since this forum is being stubborn about giving me the autofill everything to quote post #58, here's a copy paste quote instead lol:
    "I mentioned impact Cuz some tank builds uses finale as a canceller and yea I too, think its not worth it. A next gen tank would be a tank that can do some damage too. So Impact will most likely be on those builds"
    next gen, that can do some damage, that'll be me. But impact won't be part of it. Because between every shield skill, both armor skills, all knight skills, buster blade (one of 3 comboable skills that heal self along with P.def from knight and bloody bite from dark), whichever ampr skill(s) I go with, and hopefully also recovery10 for self and party, and various other things... there's just not enough skill points to carry 27 in magic tree lol. & get some HP from things like ornlarf, deni, hp boost, and perhaps a little bit of vit.. but stats largely in MTL and dex @255 mtl, 120+dex.. with 90 guard rate, 70+ guard power, 100+ mag and phys resist (works out to 75+% actual mag and phys resist)... not cheap to make a tank that can do damage, then again it's not cheap to make a dps that does high damage either lol.

    If a phys dmg character wants some magic proration, they certainly can incorporate javelin5 and impact7 into their character just as I've done on my shot toon :) (which is, btw, not my tank)
     
  20. bloodytolits

    bloodytolits Hiatus. Playing Ragnarok M Elite Member

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    1st statement is only true on Finale. A CF user won't be locked down from attacking though(cast CF, Normal attack, dodge laser, fire CF).


    DPS tank isn't exactly next gen as they've been around since before MTL tanks. I myself made one in exchange for my MTL tank because I find its playstyle boring. Right now it can deal up to 120k+ damage(depends on Boss and only 110% smited because I like a shorter combo), not as good as tanking like 100% ailment resist tank but more fun to play for me.
     

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