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Magic Blade Lv.4

Discussion in 'Toram Online General Discussions' started by Balugbog056, Jun 26, 2020.

  1. Kaisyl

    Kaisyl Elite Member Elite Member

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    Spare SP is a consequence of your build. But with all that spare SP, why not take prayer from the priest skill tree?

    Yes. If you have so much extra SP, it's time to branch out your build to accomodate for different scenarios. Eg, Finale works for stationary bosses like demon gate and venena whilst burst works for bosses that move around a lot. imperial has a 12m range, with the right combo set up, you can create a magic dps combo that doesn't rely on moving around too much to hit the boss (homing ranged magic attacks ftw?), very good for teleporting bosses like demonic quasar.

    advance familia is a random cat that has less utlility than trap skills because the AoEs can mess with its casting too or did you forget that? That's another factor of randomness to the random cat which randomly casts random magic with a random chance to randomly dick you over.
     
  2. FrostHydra97

    FrostHydra97 Well-Known Member

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    This is like an argument where a certain person desperately tries everything he has to defend an idea that many other people are against and the latter also have multiple proofs and reasons about why they are against it.

    Perhaps we should just let him cling onto his belief and let him experience it by himself. That's the only way for him to actually know if he's true or not.
    Though to me at this time, he's kinda like someone who's trying to prove the earth is flat.
     
  3. Kaisyl

    Kaisyl Elite Member Elite Member

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    Yeah and let the wrong newbie see this and think advanced familia is a great idea for a skill and then you'd have parties kicking mages just because of the unwanted headache.
     
  4. Balugbog056

    Balugbog056 Well-Known Member

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    those skill can you harmony or good transition it at the same time why you just sitting finale or spamming burst. no cuz you are under of animation of skill. while advance familia dont restrict main character to cast cat randomly. unless your a bow/bowgun class that probably use CF/Sattelite (due to not instant and freed from skill animation) that bow/bowgun class gonna idle only for Auto attack after those skill end

    Staff/Dagger mainly purpose to get gatling from dmg limit or prorate throwing knife if you want balance prorate. and assassin stab is now better than arcane strike for higher dmg output

    fareth need to idle to one spot to maximize the buff. which most dps tend move (how about finale? your gonna end up using mirage evasion if there's aoe so fareth will reset)

    i know any class can become support but you need good transition to cast those skill rather than getting bunch of supp skill and ended not using all of it. (and i never said that only mage can go support)

    are you telling INT/STR or STR/INT is a pure Mage? INT/STR or STR/INT is classified as Magic warrior.

    and at last those thing is out of topic which has nothing to do in the main topic.

    ill give you situation how to utilize advance familia once it summon

    -You can just spam Impact+Burst/Finale (2 skill Animation only) while your cat work completely free

    in 6 repeat combo cast you ended 12 animation
    (you thow 6x dps skill)

    vs

    -You mention getting a random better skill so spam it Impact+Finale/Burst+Random skill (3 Animation)

    in 4x repeat combo cast you ended 12 animation skill (you just throw only 4 dps skill at at same time)

    and if you include also mp charging with that. with 6x finale cat can throw 2x random skill. or 6 burst can 1x throw random skill

    in mage support case you can just focus full support role while your cat do random things
     
  5. Kaisyl

    Kaisyl Elite Member Elite Member

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    With finale you can use mirage evasion, burst has i-frames. Because magic gets critical damage from STR, INT/STR is a valid mage build. Hell, even Magic Warriors are mages. Toram has no set qualifier for mage so any build uses magic as their main skill set is considered as such. Toram itself even shows mages need STR now that spell burst has been upgraded and imperial ray is guaranteed critical damage with cat.

    If you want to build staff/dagger for only gattling, that's your choice. Some will go for shadow walk and build a tank pet so that they don't need to waste MP on a physical skill, some will go for Backstab + Arcane for some phys DPS with the spare SP and some may go for gattling. There is no wrong or main here, its your own build.

    If you have Fareth, you have shield for guard and you have pdef as well. For bosses like Maton Sword (Ultimate) who have full map fatal AoE, you gonna use mirage evasion?

    Your hypothetical scenario doesn't account for AoEs, the times meteor would AoE outside the map itself or even the times the cat would get force unsummoned for such AoE when it walks into a red zone and sits there.

    Also, you REALLY need to stop bringing up burst mages. Those insane mad men that make those builds have over 7k~8k CSPD. With that kind of CSPD, it takes nothing for them to put mana crystal in their burst combo to abuse the i-frame for basically free MP. Burst mages are really good for mage builds which is why I can understand why some of them won't even glance at imperial ray.

    Also, the number of animations in a combo doesn't count, it's their length and instructing the cat to do a wizard skill is basically just your character pointing for a rather insignificant time.
     
  6. Balugbog056

    Balugbog056 Well-Known Member

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    you completely ignore that advance familia is a free MP/Off-Animation skill from main char. comparing it in other random active utility skill the main character can eat MP or Animation.

    this is better to compare it to passive skill

    Lightning>Magic UP or Minor Magic Passive (this is basically javelin damage)
    Blizzard>Lightning (storm bootleg with debuff)
    Meteor RNG > Spell burst RNG (exclude imperial ray)

    and last if you care about every movement and second. you will see the difference of putting new skill in combo which give advance familia minor help compare to idling cat with buff purpose only
     
  7. Kaisyl

    Kaisyl Elite Member Elite Member

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    Prayer is 'free' too and offers no additional magic proration nor anything else other than just raw magic attack boost.

    If you take GSW, the animation time for wizard skill is abysmal to the point where it might as well not exist.

    Since wizard skills actively affect proration, you cannot consider them passives. With 30 seconds in between attacks with one of them being complete RNG, there is no way to reason out the DPS from those skills nor any ailments which they may randomly provide.

    Lightening cannot be compared to Magic UP, it is an active skill which affects proration. Do a calculation on the amount of damage dealt VS time taken to activate and you have DPS. Even then, this weak damage is still going to negatively affect your proration.

    Why are you comparing blizzard to lightening? Even if you compare it to storm, storm is still better because storm takes the location where the enemy is at the end of casting rather than at the start. Good luck using the full potential of blizzard on ANY moving boss.

    Meteor cannot be compared to spell burst because spell burst doesn't affect proration but rather boosts magic damage by a significant % or so overall with a random chance yet with a guarentee to hit. It fits in line with the theme of battle skills.

    Also, spell burst can make finale crit. What's 1 million + 20~30% or more damage?
     
  8. Balugbog056

    Balugbog056 Well-Known Member

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    try to check compare those skill and passive at mid budget equip (average dmg)

    -lightning and javelin much same damage
    -staff storm maybe stronger damage in blizzard/w freeze but this skill is free cast/and off cast from main char via advance familia
    -meteor (probably you never seen average damage in meteor per hit cuz no one using it as a main dps) thats why comparable to spell burst+finale assuming your not spending on CRT personal stats to increase the MCR rate

    due to lack of pure magic synergy i only use magic passive as example to compare advance familia despite your gonna take all of them

    most of mage already have already prayer cuz its essential skill from pure dps mage

    and in the first place mage weak vs mobiliy boss at the time wizard skill is not release (cuz imperial ray is lock on magic skill) but people still manage to play finale despite there's a lot of mobile boss

    if the boss is mobile most of people wont play mage finale (some weirdo does) cuz not viable to use unless your a burst mage.

    so if your playing finale mage with a right boss. the probability RNG of advance familia is utilize (you get bonus dmg and debuff for free mp/off-animation skills)

    the proration dont problem cuz even spammer tenryu can be cured. 3~4 finale + 1 magic cat wont hurt proration at 30 sec. (so dont bother mentioning it) cuz even 2 mage at party magic prorate always maximize cuz magic is not hard spammable compare to physical class.

    is there any better passive non essential mage skill that better than advance familia (cuz you dont need to control advance familia and act as a minor damager/debuffer without any taking movement in your main character) and idk even know how did you ran out SP in mage dps unless you play it PHY/MAG dps (unless you Lv.10 all magic skill probably you ran out SP for that)
     
  9. Amaymon

    Amaymon Well-Known Member

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    To be fair, if you wanna see the full potential of each builds you have to test them with the strongest equipments possible customized for said build. Then followed by the average 1s equipments to check if they are viable for common populace.
     
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  10. Kaisyl

    Kaisyl Elite Member Elite Member

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    Damage rate of lightening is lower than javelin but the damage of the same hence lightening has a lower dps.

    'free' blizzard has a 30 second cooldown and has a 33% chance of actually getting cast. Even magic device storm can compare with it.

    There is no possible way meteor can ever compare to the damage of spell burst trigger + finale. Show your proof for your claim on this one because I call bullshit.

    Pure magic huh, whatcha gonna do with all the magic dps in the game? There's no reason to take an absurd number of magic dps skills which have minimal effect. There is a reason why magic is so open ended, staves have so many sub weapons available and MD has low damaging but wide area magics.

    No skill in this game is 'essential', there are skills which are better suited for certain builds and some that are just completely abysmal. Prayer isn't essential. Very useful yes but not essential. It's still Hella more useful than a cat which does weak, random damage and damages proration.

    You seem to keep going on about how it's free cast when you don't even consider the skill MP cost to summon the thing nor the fact that the cat randomly casts a random skill every 30 seconds and if it's meteor which you say has best dps, it's more randomisation because it may or may not land inside the map and it may or may not hit the target who may or may not be at that location when the skill was cast.

    You haven't shown why advanced familia is even useful only gave a theoretical situation which hopes the boss stays still and doesn't use AoEs.
     
  11. Balugbog056

    Balugbog056 Well-Known Member

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    i already said advance familia is useful cuz its free mp/off-animation for main chara instead using normal familia only do idle for buff purpose

    besides taking magic related buff skills and passive of course dps such as finale,burst or imperial ray (most usable atm). adding more bunch useless skill like kick and trap skill is useless animation skill and your not even the main aggro to play trap skill since your a dps mage.

    of course the advance familia have 3mp cost. but you gonna play normal familia which same MP cost for buff purpose.

    after casting advance familia compare to getting active skill which adding active skill take animation instead focusing impact+dps combo and mp+maximizer or rebuff. advance familia dont take any animation main character and your cat give minor help independent

    and the reason why meteor and finale spell burst is comparable (25 crt = 6.25 mcr is very low chance to proc compare to meteor rng chance to hit. and even you invest more crt to proc spell burst easily the meteor will also proc in spell burst which those magic skill will increase)

    and you said no skill essential in this game. so try to play staff mage without such as maximizer and impact if this skill is not essential.

    also the reason i mention how the heck you ran out SP cuz i saw one of your vid you literally use almost entire magic skill and dagger skill in battle (that's why i think this is one of reason you ran out SP on mage)
     
  12. Kaisyl

    Kaisyl Elite Member Elite Member

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    You're missing the point. Pure magic builds in a class free game like Toram is your personal choice. If you want to go for all the magic skills in the game then that's on you. The focus is advanced familia.

    Staff mage no Maximiser is just a regular STR monk build, it has been done already. It's not a mage tho, more a staff martial artist.

    Skill cost is irrelevant with combo system so 'free MP/animation free' isn't exactly a benefit. Animation times of wizard skills are already negligible, basically a tad shorter than impact.

    Sober analysis, the lv2 survival skill that grants passive MP regen in battle is free and has no situational drawbacks. It's terrible to take and has a better alternative, decoy shot, but it has no demerits to taking the skill.

    Like sober analysis, there are terrible skills in the game which are terrible but have no demerits.

    Hunter skills are pretty bad but they are controllable.

    Advanced familia, if I am not mistaken, is the very first skill of its kind that can actually hurt the player for using it.

    As for spell burst finale, yeah the chance is low but it doesn't bite into proration nor does it require any excessive prerequisites. You basically dump points into the skill and all your magic attacks, every single one of them, have a chance to do 20~30% more DMG. It's basically a passive you throw points into when you have extra points as designed to be~
     
  13. Balugbog056

    Balugbog056 Well-Known Member

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    the game is free build but you still use regular/essential skills of weapon itself to play it well. like removing impact in staff mage finale user will turn into garbage cuz you either use long combo to compensate the mp requirement. removing maximizer you litterally cant cast finale frequently or even spam burst.

    mp cost , animation , time is matter cuz using new active skill waste more time instead of focusing dps/mp refill/rebuff pattern

    and how the heck harmful advance familia while your not gonna tank the enemy (commonly tank is mtl type which ailment of normal mobs is practically useless and normal mobs wont hurt. and they favored on mass kill in most of scenario one of the reason there's a tank in mini boss area)

    sober analysis the skill itself is not terrible. the stats system is terrible which you get very low mp regen on equipment and xtall and its not even affected by int which make this skill is dead

    magic proration coming from mage is practically nothing cuz physical class and tank more frequently use auto attack and physical skill.

    and you dont need to pray to stay boss in one place cuz advance familia acts as buff + minor dmg/debuff instead only doing dps/mp refill method (non adv familia vs adv familia you will take same rate of your usual pattern if your only doing dps skill/rebuff/mp refill)

    and you even include scenario which mobile boss most likely dodge cat skill. even finale user wont even play there cuz you just get frustate getting dodge by boss frequently (one of the reason they add imperial ray to fix this)

    and lastly most of regular mage (such as finale or burst user) tend to use familia to get buff purpose even they wont use wizard magic skill (so if you have spare SP its better to get adv. familia which do work instead nothing)
     
  14. Red_Fox

    Red_Fox Internet Pirate Super Likable Elite Member Epic Member

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    i feel like i just read the same two posts over and over again...

    so, to put an end to this:
    - Lightning takes 4s and has a multiplier around 3-4. the ailment chance is less than 50%. it's just a free filler, like Throwing Knive.
    - Blizzard having half the damage of Storm is not as op as you make it out to be. Storm is no longer the strongest magic, it's just utility to entangle enemies. the ailment chance is just as low, it only seems to be higher because you get up to 6 chances.
    - Meteor has the same damage as Blast. a 2m radius attack within a 20m radius field has a ~6% chance to cover the initial target spot (or any selected spot), so the chance to hit even just once is only 20% at best.
    Blast will always hit.

    randomly casting Lightning is not much different from ordering it manually, which could be done 5 times in the same time period.
    random blizzard saves 1mp (at lv200+, haha).
    random meteor is the only one that makes a difference, but since you must have Blizzard lv5 to get there, there's a 50% chance of casting lv5 Blizzard.

    now some things that were not discussed yet, but are most important for evaluating the skill's usefulness:
    - since it's an extra skill rather than a passive upgrade, is it possible to summon both at the same time?
    - with the power depending on the other skills' levels, does it provide the same buffs as the regular version or does the effect increase like Advanced Bless?
    - giving an order will cancel the previous cast if not finished. does this also interrupt the random auto-cast, and if it does, do you still have to wait another 30s for the next one?
     
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  15. Insane23

    Insane23 Well-Known Member

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    1. No, casting one overwrites other's buff
    2. It seems to only to depend of advanced familiar skill level, not on the level of skill cast, but at even level 10 familiar the skills cast aren't like their lv 10 version (lv 1-5, couldn't tell for sure), so their dmg/ailment chance are lower
    3. Sadly yes. Random cast also cancels your previous action.
     
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  16. Red_Fox

    Red_Fox Internet Pirate Super Likable Elite Member Epic Member

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    so you actually can spend 3mp for Meteor and the cat just decides to cast Lightning for 0mp instead but doesn't give your mp back?
    nani the fuck
     
  17. Insane23

    Insane23 Well-Known Member

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    This is the whole point of the complain, this skill is pretty retarded lol
     
  18. FrostHydra97

    FrostHydra97 Well-Known Member

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    Well technically you are indeed reading the same 2 posts over and over again. It's basically two people arguing, with one desperately clinging onto his belief that the skill is useful, while the other desperately trying to convince him that it's not (while in reality the skill really isn't useful as the former believed).

    Actually you don't need to have the skill for the "advance" cat to be able to use it. But those skills are already horrible as they are now, so an additional free cast of either of those 3 every 30 sec isn't gonna make noticeable difference.

    Due to how often a magic user can throw their main damaging skills these days, an additional Lightning or Blizzard every 30 sec is a hilarious joke. I'd say a random Lightning or Blizzard can give an extra damage of, idk, 1% of the damage you could deal with Finale or Burst during those 30s? Wow, what a huge amount of extra damage! Meteor? Yeah its damage might be indeed noticeable since it has the same damage as Blast, but that is only if it can manage to hit at least once. Not every boss would be staying still at one place, and even if they do, the meteor can still miss thanks to rng. There's a reason why almost everyone gives no **** about Meteor Strike despite it having decent damage. And not to mention the dumb cat is not gonna cast Meteor Strike all the time.
    (I'm not even using a pure mage build, and yet i can still deal around half a million damage or more within 30 seconds with just magic skills alone. What would a few thousand damage even do? Scratching the boss' back so it won't feel itchy anymore? Even my basic attacks can do that.)

    Oh, and there's also a who-the-hell-know chance of inflicting some debuff every 30 sec. Lightning? It successfully paralyze? Good, now wait for another 30 seconds and let's see what would the next random cast be. If failed? Still wait for another 30 seconds and let's see what would the next random cast be, and also don't forget to curse your own luck. Blizzard? Well, it can deal up to 6 hits so the freeze chance is higher, but can you be sure that the next cast would also be Blizzard? No? Then it's the same as Lightning: bad. Meteor? Let it hit first and we'll talk.

    Like i've said in a previous reply, unless every random cast is Meteor Strike, and they all hit at least once, else the "Advanced" cat is no different from the regular cat. Spend SP on it if you really want, but it'd be better to spend those points on another skill that has more utility than this, even if you might not be using that often.

    Oh, and sorry if somehow you feel offended by this reply of mine. I'm not directing any hostility on you, if there is any then it is directing to the guy who believes that "Advanced" Familia is worth using.
     
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2020
  19. Yunan

    Yunan Not Enough Salt Elite Member

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    Its a crappy skill tree, best if you only take stone barrier, otherwise the aura skills are way better and more useful. Not many people uses mana recharge and magic barrier, those two skills worth way more than some random cast that doesn't have a clear use. Too much spare SP? Get brave aura, quick motion, high cycle, recovery, heal, mana recharge, magic barrier, both finale and burst, then p. Def, spirited dance. Even after all those skills taken I wouldn't recommend advanced cat nor imperial ray. Get max level first aid, play-dead, or even guardian beam. Lvl 4 wizard tree is disapointing
     
  20. Lucifere

    Lucifere Angel of Rebellion Elite Member

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    Lets see those who thinks wizzard skills are good should work with Asobimo. Both are genius with skills ( sarcasm).
    Wizzard skills are all crap.
     

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