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New refine system no anti-deg 2[] equip+s under 1m spina

Discussion in 'Toram Online Game Guides' started by HoneyUp, May 13, 2022.

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  1. HoneyUp

    HoneyUp Member

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  2. RyeUshio

    RyeUshio The Blue Bull Super Likable Elite Member Epic Member

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    Yep. Killed their business. Lmao. ^_^
     
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  3. Lucifere

    Lucifere Angel of Rebellion Elite Member

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    Well for me the game have reached to the lvl of devs making everything easy
     
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  4. screamingfox

    screamingfox Well-Known Member

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    Some things being easier is good though.

    Refinement has always been an annoying side hustle. We literally craft and upgrade early so we don't have to do this song and dance for another few months.

    If your using elemental weapons (hello mages, the entire point of this change) multiply or square that anguish by your elemental weapon count.

    And that's not even considering how it discouraged making off-meta, experimental, and for-fun builds from seeing the light of day.

    Refinement and the spina sink it was, has always been a negative for the game. Especially with how the RNG of it used to work.
     
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  5. The Lost One

    The Lost One THOT BEGONE AGENT Elite Member

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    Ye mean refine service scammers :D
     
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  6. Unetéro Kenora

    Unetéro Kenora Well-Known Member

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    I can Understand why some of the people are complaining, some of them now won't be gaining a F*ck ton of spina per +S item sale, thing is, just like the price gone down, the Effort and resources to make those +S gears gone down too, significantly, before it was ridiculously expensive to both Make and Buy +S gear, now it's not, you get paid for what you do, and you are doing a Lot less and expending a L o t Less to get those +S's, so complaining about gaining less is.. Hm, bit entitled.
    Toram community is like the Reverse of a spoiled child sometimes, they rather eat Dirt than a delicious cake, and I don't understand Why..

    I do hope asobimo puts Multiple refines at once Option soon, the hammers noise is killing me
     
  7. Lucifere

    Lucifere Angel of Rebellion Elite Member

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    Well I do like challenging games I would be more aggree to just increase percentaje so actually ur antidegras worth it.
     
  8. Unetéro Kenora

    Unetéro Kenora Well-Known Member

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    ..What's remotely "Challenging" about standing on front of a screen for hours Hoping that the RNG doesn't f*** you over? Challenge implies that you can fail or succeed due to lack of Skill, RNG does not require personal 'Skill', it either Gives you something or not, Randomly. it's just Annoyance, making you Wait for the sake of it. did you feel like the artificial, unhealthy RNG of before was a "Challenge"? it wasn't, it was just bad.

    and.. Giving us higher success rate is what they did, it takes a while but you Will eventually get an +S. while before it was a possibility, but be sure that you would get spun around and rot before your screen before getting one, and expensive as hell to make or buy..

    I still buy anti-degradations, it's Fine that they are not a Must anymore, now they are a novelty for someone who feels like speeding up the refining process. somewhat of a luxury rather than a need, they are still worth using but the conditions and target changed. the game economy will eventually stabilize. hell I spent 1M on anti-degra's those 2 days because I'm an impatient person and wanted to get the refining done faster .-.)
     
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  9. The Lost One

    The Lost One THOT BEGONE AGENT Elite Member

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    Pffft it's ridiculous to say 1% chance for +S is "challenging" and spending a lot of spina is "challenging". One of the most ridiculous part of this game is the refinement and to gamble that 1% success rate is not challenging, it's hell.

    The game already deals a lot of RNG but to also add a ridiculous RNG on refinement like +S is 1% is just a no no in my book and will never be called a challenge on my part.
     
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  10. The Brahmnic Boy

    The Brahmnic Boy Well-Known Member

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    Well I'll be the devil's advocate here and clarify what people over on Discord have been saying :
    • At first glance, the system seems a bit to easy. However, I am not yet well versed in statistics and probability, so I am not sure myself. Raw numbers tell you that you need 14850 points to get 99% success rate (plus one that was ever present), but in reality all of my refines happened in less than 1700 pity points.
      • Now, this is just pure RNG : I got one for only 1080 points, another user got about 444 points, while my friend didn't reach +S for about 2300+ points.
      • Technically, yes, there is a chance that you could get extremely unlucky and require all 14850 points to refine to +S.
    • What the Discord veterans are complaining about is the expected value for getting a +S refine appears to be around 2000.
      • Again, I've learnt statistics and probability, yes, and if I wanted I could spend a lot of time to get the actual expected value, but I currently have Uni exams unrelated to Probability so I can't say anything with absolute conviction.
    • Now, they don't hate that the refine system is guaranteeing a +S weapon. They dislike that you require only about 3-6 stacks of Mithril ore.
    • Also, at least the people on Discord, feel that this change will only further some divides in society, like parties kicking newbies out saying, "Why u no dps +S easy now" or not allowing newbie tanks to learn anything because all tanks will be required to have +S shield, armor and Additional gear regardless of how much expertise the player actually has.
      • I do realize that parties cannot see how much refinement exists on a player's weapon, but it will be assumed that everyone has +S and that will cause parties to kick newbies simply because their damage is subpar.
      • You very well know +S is not the only factor contributing to damage, since Critical Damage, SRD/LRD, Unsheate, Elemental, Proration, Speed, Pierce matter too when making a good dps.
        • 2s is also sometimes necessary if you need sub 1 min runs or something, or soloing difficult bosses.
    It also has to do with perceived skill of a particular player.
    • If you see a level 220 player, you assume certain things about how skilled the player might be on mechanics and dps/tanking in general.
    • Similarly, if you see someone showcasing their +S equipment (not in game, but elsewhere), then you assume they are at least a semi-decent player. I don't know how those preconceived notions are formed exactly, but I have noticed them.
    • With so many +S weapons around, it becomes difficult to judge who might be better.
      • Personally, I think it is a good change, because now newbies will realize quicker that +S is not the only thing that they need, since there is a bias in newbies that makes them think achieving that one specific thing (be it +S, 2s, pierce, high ATK wpn, that particular skill) will make them a better dps.
      • I know this because even after refining to +S, I still felt I did poorly at Kuzto ultimate with my staff shield semi-dps, even with 47% pierce. It makes you realize +S is not worth the time sunk into it.
        • Yes, +S makes the difference in DPS, as it should, but the time sunk into it in the old system vs the damage gained by IT ALONE was rather subpar.
    Also, they think that any future scope with refining is killed.
    • Say Asobimo adds +SS or +16 or +17 refine, then if you have a weapon with more than 3000 pts, it would be laughably easy to refine to those higher levels, since the points accumulate.
    • Say I have a weapon with 14850 points, I could technically refine it to level infinity!
    • The entire refining branch is kinda invalidated. I did all my refines with a 255 LUK char without any anti deg. (I could use some, but I was doing poorly on finances then)
    • So this new system kinda broke the scope for refinement.
    What do I think personally?
    • I think mindless RNG just saps hours of our times away from otherwise enriching lives. What sort of entertainment do you gain from looking at the same frames over and over again? For this very reason I also find storm/vortex farming boring at times. I'm here to spend my time for fun, not to do work again, which I am escaping from!!!
      • And no, I can't buy +S weapons always, since I tend to use NPC drops a lot. Ferocious Beast Claws, Edgy Nova, DX Blockers, Ghoulfish staff, etc.
    • However, I think that the pity points should not accumulate on the weapon. Instead, they should have added a Refinement Proficiency to the player itself.
      • Every attempt gives you some points, every successful refine gives you more. +1 gives you some points, +S gives relatively more. These proficiency points accumulate on the player.
      • This makes it so that even after a 5-6 months of playing, the refinement process to +S or +A is somewhat reasonable.
      • The more experienced players will have accumulated a lot over the years, but that will help them refine 1s or 2s weapons easily.
      • Of course, this will not apply backwards, so everyone in 2022 has a blank state of Refinement proficiency to start with.
      • This would have been a better system that makes everyone happier.
    What do you think?
     
  11. The Lost One

    The Lost One THOT BEGONE AGENT Elite Member

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    1.)I am willing to use 3-6 stacks of mithril ore to +S which barely exceed 1m rather than the early refine system which uses a lot of anti degs and ores but there is a little chance to get +S or not getting to +S in a single day refine and will go broke if ye get unlucky af. People are so used to that old system, it's no wonder they're thinking the new one is too easy or broken. The new system is a GODSEND and the best thing for newbies/poor players to have.

    2.) Kicking players is a norm before this refinement system has been implemented. As long as elitism exist, there will be always constant kicking when they're not satisfied. It's not the system fault, it's those besterds fault.

    3.) Overall damage will always come down on how much budget you are investing on your character. Even if you feel a sub par difference when you reach +S, +S is still better than using +B equipment.

    4.) Did someone actually reach 10k+ points? Toram devs might nerf the refinement in the future but probably not changing it into what ye said "proficiency" since it's a new coding and it takes a lot of work but they might cap the additional success rate from points like the maximum flat success rate of 10% or worse 5%. They might also nerf it this way by increasing the points required for +1% success rate like 300 = 1% or worse 500 = 1%.


    I am totally bias on this new system since it relieved the stress I got when I refine back then and fok old refine system. That's all
     
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  12. Unetéro Kenora

    Unetéro Kenora Well-Known Member

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    Contrast, and Conditioning, the previous refine system was atrociously bad, but it's what we knew. you get used to it, or even Complacent at worst. By the time something that is Fair and Normal Comes before you, something that would be or Imitates the norm in other games, it feels "Too easy" or "UnBAlNAceD" as some are saying. you aren't used to Not being exploited.
    I don't think this update for Refinement is Above ''normal'' and Far from 'too good'. From a grade of 1 to 10; the previous system was 1 for the pure RNG stench, this one is 4, for Normal-ish (The old system is pretty much present, with a pity system slapped on top of it- better than nothing, but not "Good". ""Great" or "Unbalanced" would be around 10, when Refining is Actually too easy, using less than half a stack of >any< ore to get +S, or something, making +S grade not valuable at all (I never saw an overly generous RNG based refinement system, well- never saw Toram be overly generous actually- so pardon me for not having better comparisons, Ironic).

    Like, seriously, people acting like a bloody Pitty system is more than we should have is, well, Pitiful. It's the Bare minimum a scummy RNG Governed system requires, some freaking Gacha games had it before Toram, and you should know, if even Those games with dubious at best business have that decency, then Toram is Late to the party. this system forces the player to stare at the screen and press the same 2 buttons wasting their time for almost an hour watching the same hammering animation again and again, hopping the RNG will soon cease Fucking around, we get a Pitty system to speed up that painful, asinine process a bit, not even a Multiple refine option, a Pitty system, and That is "Too good"? for anyone who thinks like that, what do you think Pitty System Implies? a Rented apartment is not the President's mansion.
    (if anyone wants to argue about time wasting, games are a Fun waste of time, the Refine system is actively unfun, needless waste of time, we already painfuly grinded the Levels to get the Tiered skills and farmed the materials, What the fuck is that one by one manual refine doing in my game?)

    There must be a proper terminology for this kind of situation.. and it has been frankly disturbing and annoying to see people here behave similarly to what people and economy in real life sometimes do. talk about measuring from low standards
     
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  13. Lil☆Neko

    Lil☆Neko Well-Known Member

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    Honestly, I think the most important thing this update does is take away the neccessity of piercers. Instead, the game encourages you to keep spam crafting until you get a 2s and then refine that to +s yourself... especially when weapon piercers cost so much nowadays.

    It also seems like different ores have different point values, so stuff like high purity iron from avatar recycling is pretty good (that gives 6 points per fail)

    Also interesting thought on a "guild event" - members submit screenshot of lowest points (not 0, for equipments before the update) on a +S equipment
     
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