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6th tier skill ideas

Discussion in 'Toram Online General Discussions' started by Kousunpo, Apr 22, 2022.

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  1. Kousunpo

    Kousunpo Well-Known Member

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    So my point still stands and rydalex's argument is still null and void unless the new additional requirements given to accurately and perfectly simulate the future impossible to beat without invincibility bosses i have predicted are fulfilled
     
  2. XGunZx

    XGunZx Well-Known Member

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    like i said, you dont even need hp as you can use p.def when needed, it doesnt matter if you receive 1k dmg or 2M dmg, it'll allways kill you.
    i dont think at some point the bosses are going to kill tanks with 50k with normal attacks, if that happens then tank will die, if the tank die all the party dies, then everyone will say that the new bosses are impossible and asobimo will nerf the boss, do you think that they undo the smite rework for no reason?

    and invencible really doesnt do much for 80% of players, as they all die in all bosses, even in venena

    we need skills that doesnt lock the player when using like the new bow skill
     
  3. XGunZx

    XGunZx Well-Known Member

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    also i gave up trying to upload the vid, even facebook doesnt let me upload, i did it, but i dont care if you belive or not, and the test is useless as it just shows how much you need (edit: not need, but "can use") a invencibility skill to survive
     
  4. Kousunpo

    Kousunpo Well-Known Member

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    Actually if the tank dies, the dps players can still defeat the future bosses that can 1 hit effortlessly murders tanks with every hit and boss-skills and spam absolute ailments that render p def useless, if the dps players use invincibility and provided that they are well practiced, thus invincibility is still important for such cases when bosses are designed to always 1 hit kill tanks with every attacks and boss-skills and completely nullify p def with absolute ailments
     
  5. Rydalis Darx

    Rydalis Darx Well-Known Member

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    Wow, I figured saying what I said would make you explode, Kousunpo, but this is a lot more than I expected, good for you.

    Just remember, it's not up to people to prove you wrong, you need to prove yourself right. If I say that the Earth is flat, I'm not automatically correct if no one proves me wrong. I don't need to do your challenge, because I don't need to disprove someone who cannot prove themselves correct. If I do your challenge, all you'll do is create a new one, as you've already done.

    However, for my point, let's look at the proportion of people who make builds for Toram. Soul Hunter is a very good skill, an overloaded one to say the least. Practically 70% of all build videos made for Toram include this skill in it regardless of weapon. For a game that prides itself with build variation and making whatever builds you want, that is a lot of people using one skill, which shows that there is a lack of build diversity in the game. This shows that skills like Soul Hunter create a game state where everyone uses the same thing, which is bland and does not help the community of people who want to be creative. Another example would be how people were very quick to dismiss T5 skills purely because of the fact it either didn't do enough damage or didn't live up to the insane skills that we have, like Soul Hunter. But this happens in every game because people don't know everything about the skills yet, which leads to people believing that good skills are bad anyways.

    You can announce yourself the winner of this argument as much as you want, I truly do not care. From your response to me I've already concluded you're not exactly the type of person who can reason effectively. I just posted my responce because this is an opinionated thread. What I found most funny is how my post alone tripled the amount of pages this thread had. Your outburst and diminutive argumentation is a sight to behold.
     
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2022
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  6. Kousunpo

    Kousunpo Well-Known Member

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    Then its settled, i have won the argument due to the challenge that is revised to include the additional 2 requirements of the challenger to use only p def and have only 0 MTL and 0 Vit investments against vlamm to properly simulate future bosses that would consistently deal beyond 1 million damage and spam absolute debilitating ailments thus being absolutely Infinity+% impossible to defeat such bosses without invincibility have not been fulfilled. the challenge in itself is the proof that for certain bosses invincibility is required to win which points to the direction that for future bosses that at least some of them will be impossible to defeat with even the best of tanks and that invincibility will be an absolute necessity to defeat such bosses. My deduction is based on logic and probabilities. So in a sense i have proven myself mathematically correct and the only way you can refute it is by trying to disprove it there is no getting around that. And by the way there already exists such bosses where tanks are completely useless and would be far more suitable simulation challenges than vlamm but i forgot which ones as there are too many bosses to remember and i usually mostly farm regular bosses that offers high spina drops, but based on experience i have seen tanks after tanks being annihilated by such preexisting bosses and i and other dpses had to rely on invincibility to defeat the otherwise undefeatable boss, if i recall the bosses later on i will get back on that. But moving on if there are already bosses that makes tanks useless and invincibility is needed to defeat them. then yeah the future impossible to defeat without invincibility bosses will basically be massively upgraded versions of the preexisting ones.
     
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  7. Rydalis Darx

    Rydalis Darx Well-Known Member

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    Where's your math, I don't see any. If your deduction is based on logic and probabilities, you wouldn't need a challenge, which is a stark contradiction. Also, if it is impossible you wouldn't need probabilities either since all you need to prove is that the probability is 0%, which you haven't done. The challenge doesn't actually prove anything, and you're using anything you can find to prove yourself correct. I don't need to supply your proof, you show me your proof, and you haven't shown anything. The only thing you've proven is that you're really bad at arguments really.
     
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  8. Kousunpo

    Kousunpo Well-Known Member

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    Math does not require numbers but variables, and the variables are based on the raw power of a boss to one hit kill tanks and also the fact that there are ailments that makes p def useless, and also the challenge is to demonstrate that certain bosses require invincibility to defeat and the 0 VIT and MTL is to simulate future bosses that can deal beyond 1 million damage consistently and dish out ailments that can render p def useless((vlamm does not have stop and stun but different especially the predicted future bosses that spams stop and stun would)), and yep that is probabilities and mathematics wrapped up. and i don't care about "burden of proof" as that is an excuse to cop out of trying to disprove another's argument, so as i have shared my math and reasoning and probabilities. it is up to you to disprove me. either you get rid of that cop out excuse and try to disprove me or accept loss that is how it will go from here on
     
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  9. Rydalis Darx

    Rydalis Darx Well-Known Member

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    Then you're out of luck, I cannot disprove an argument that doesn't exist. The burden of proof exists so math and science are varifiable and trustable. Without those, we cannot trust your conclusion, and you have no argument.

    We cannot call your test valid because it is trying to test something that does not exist. Even still, try this test on an earlier boss, like Boss Roga, and see if simulates bosses like Mardula and Venena. If your test is verifiable and trustable, it should work on ANY boss to simulate "future" bosses. If it doesn't, then it's not a valid test and you cannot use it to prove your point. Actually, I'll tell you it's not a valid test, because it's an absurd test that doesn't prove anything, and your assertion is wrong.
     
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  10. Kousunpo

    Kousunpo Well-Known Member

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    I have already provided proof, the bosses that can 1 hit tanks such as vlamm exist, and absolute ailments such as stun and stops that disables p def exists, so if both those variables exists, just combine any boss that spams ailments and bosses with one hit kill power together and such a boss is definitely a possibility, and as for probabilities, if you look at the chronological timeline for each bosses newer and newer bosses often combine mechanisms together as the developers are notorious for, so it will eventually reach a point that both one hit kill tank power and absolute ailments combines. So there math and probabilities all wrapped in one, by the way all of those exists, just not perfectly combined yet, however with the chronological timeline comparison, it is 100% possible for toram developers to simply just fuse all of those variables and mechanisms that have been outlined to produce a boss so difficult that only with invincibility shall victory be possible.

    So therefore my argument is sound in science and math and proof and therefore it is valid. your argument on the other hand has no basis nor substance to back up that the toram developers wouldn't just combine all of those mechanisms together and make a boss in which p def is useless and necessitates invincibility therefore your argument is the truly invalid 1.

    If you cannot explain why they do not have the capability of designing such a boss that combines all those variables and mechanisms together which by the way all of the variables and mechanisms Exists. Then you have lost the argument plain and simple lol
     
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2022
  11. Kousunpo

    Kousunpo Well-Known Member

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    The Devs are Toram Almighty Gods above Almas, nothing in Toram is outside of their Omnipotence, so simply fusing all those variables and mechanisms to produce bosses that can One Hit Kill even the sturdiest of Tanks and spam Absolute Ailments such as Stun and Stop to render P Def absolutely useless thus necessitating invincibility, would be child's play for them lol
     
  12. Rydalis Darx

    Rydalis Darx Well-Known Member

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    Then let's do some math, shall we?
    Consider the following variables:
    p = chance of a boss that can 1 hit tanks = 50% (either it does or does not)
    q = chance of a boss that has absolute ailments = 50% (either it does or does not)
    r = chance of a boss that spams ailments. Let us assume that a boss has 5 attacks, in which case the chance of all of them having an ailment tied to them is 3.125% (All attacks either having an ailment or not, 50% for each)

    Assuming that none of these attacks are dodgeable, for a boss to have all three of these qualities, we multiply p, q, and r since we need to see the probability of this outcome.
    50% * 50% * 3.125% = 0.7%
    7 in 1000 bosses, you will correct
    993 in 1000 bosses, I will be correct
    While the possibility exists, the likelyhood of your argument being correct approaches 0.
     
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  13. The Lost One

    The Lost One THOT BEGONE AGENT Elite Member

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    Perfect Defense all the way and energy control if knuckles or both if used by knuckles as a tank.

    Mp cost efficient. 1 mp 0 damage taken.

    Since yer not mentioning what kind of weapon class it is, skills with invincibility aside from asura cost a lot of mp :) Invincibility is great to have but Perfect Defense/ Energy Control is the bread and butter for any tank or semi tank class.

    You can use this combo on vlam balls.
    Perfect Defense>Energy Control(cons) for knuckles. Lol
     
  14. Kousunpo

    Kousunpo Well-Known Member

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    i only need to be correct once to be the victor of the argument, because they wouldn't make all future bosses have all of those mechanisms and variables combined, but on the few that do combine all of the mechanisms and variables((specifically one hit kill tank power and absolute ailments stun and stop)) , that is enough to prove my argument absolutely correct lol
     
  15. Rydalis Darx

    Rydalis Darx Well-Known Member

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    When that 0.7% boss is created, then you're right, until then you are wrong. It's like saying that there is a 0.1% chance I'll win the lottery so I already won the lottery.

    If we were to continue the probability test taking into account that most attacks can be evaded or dodged manually, then the probability of this boss being created is actually 0%. Based on the statistics, there will never be a world where invincibility is necessary to beat a boss, let alone the game as a whole. Please stop asserting this point to everyone, because your statistics are wrong even at the most basic level of statistics, your assertion is proven to be nigh impossible, and your way to fix it is more likely to ruin the game state. Admit this, you're grasping at straws to win an argument that would never statistically prove you correct, because I've never heard someone be so proud that they are 0.7% likely to be correct except for conspiracy theorists.
     
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  16. Kousunpo

    Kousunpo Well-Known Member

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    your statistics are entirely fabricated out of nowhere without any verifiable source and created to suit your bias to begin with, realistically that boss would be approximately a generous 2% to 3% chance likelihood of being made for each boss released, oh and by the way my entire argument is that it is inevitable that they would make such a boss in the future where it is impossible to defeat without invincibility even with manual evasion and manual guard due to absolute stun and absolute stop. and because of the way i have worded my argument being that "it is well within their power to create a boss that is absolutely impossible to defeat without invincibility and they have all the mechanisms from preexisting bosses to make it happen" i have won and you lost fair and square :D
     
  17. Rydalis Darx

    Rydalis Darx Well-Known Member

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    That 5% to 10% does not have an explanation tied to it, and by your logic it is even more made up than my statistics, which I at least explained all the values. If you're going to mention values, tell us where you got it from. For someone trying to prove a point you're not very good at showing your work.

    Also, my counterargument was that it is a 0% chance of it happening, so it isn't possible even if we are given infinite time. It is within their power to create a boss that is absolutely impossible to defeat without invincibility, but you haven't proven that it WILL happen. It is within your power to create a time bomb and blow yourself up, but does that mean you'll make one? I've proven beyond a reasonable doubt that it WONT happen, meaning you're just ignoring what I'm saying at this point. If you're trying to win an argument, at least read what I'm saying.
     
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  18. Kousunpo

    Kousunpo Well-Known Member

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    first of all you have never proven that they wouldn't just use their power and preexisting resources to make an "ultimate boss" that is so difficult that "drastic measures" are required to defeat it, so i am still the winner of the argument until you have a screenshot from the official toram developers((Asobimo)) that clearly states that they would never increase boss difficulty to such an extent that it is impossible to defeat without invincibility lol
     
  19. Kousunpo

    Kousunpo Well-Known Member

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    and by the way i changed it to 2% to 3% chance per each new boss release for realism, so wait around 150 to 200 bosses later then we will see who is right and wrong lol
     
  20. Rydalis Darx

    Rydalis Darx Well-Known Member

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    If this is how you want to argue, then we both are wrong, because we both need a screenshot from the official toram developers that clearly state that they would or wouldn't increase boss difficulty to such an extent that it is impossible to defeat without invincibility. Until one of us has a screenshot, we are both wrong, Kousunpo, there is no way around this, these are your words exactly.

    Otherwise, assert your claim, and forever know that you're wrong until you have a screenshot.
     
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