Zantei, Skill Queueing, Shukuchi, and other fun stuff.

Sharing some Quirks with, Zantei, the Combo system, and Shukuchi. There is some reading involved, those with short attention spans may suffer, everything is spoilered so you can easily skip whatever you already know but i recommend reading through everything anyway. I'm already aware that some of this stuff is common knowledge among Katana users. Whatever, some people might not know, there is stuff in there that people definitely wont know.
Zantei Settetsu. AKA: Becky, lemme slash.
Zantei, what does it do?

Spoiler

Zantei Settetsu: 400mp katana skill. four hits of physical damage. For the duration of this skill's animation, the user receives a buff that “parries” one attack (attack deals 0 damage). If this effect is activated, then the user will perform a fifth hit immediately after the first four which deals significantly more damage and has a chance to inflict armour break.

Be aware, that even if an attack is parried, it still counts as being hit. Support auras, crossfire charges, and possibly physical/magical barriers on equipment will be affected.

Zantei will negate any “interruption” status ailments (flinch, tumble, stun, knock back) of the hit it negates. Zantei will not negate any other status ailments, which is especially important for ailments like slow, ignite, freeze, and fear as those can be dangerous to receive even if the damage from the attack is negated.

Bleed and Silence are also special cases. You can be inflicted with bleed even if you parry the inflicting attack, but it will not stop Zantei nor its final strike. However, if the next skill in a combo is physical or magical, then it will be cancelled by bleed and silence respectively.

Skill queueing/combo queueing. AKA: Combos, how do they work?
Skill queueing/combo queueing: using range differences in skills during a combo to prepare skills in advance and add manual delays.

Spoiler

Consider the combo

Pulse blade > Issen

Pulse blade has a range of 10m (can be more depending on size of target), however Issen only has a range of 2m (katana range). If pulse blade is used at 0-10m and the enemy is more than 2m away when pulse blade finishes, then Issen will not activate and will instead be “queued”.

(Note, that in this situation you cannot “slide” out of pulse blade. Pulse or Hasso must be the final skill in a combo to enable the user to slide out of them)

While a skill is queued, you can move around freely. A queued skill will activate if

1. The user is within activation range of the queued skill
2. The user is not moving

If both these conditions are fulfilled, then the queued skill will immediately activate. Queued skills when activated, will retain their combo tag properties.

If when pulse blade finishes the enemy is within 2m then Issen will activate without giving you the ability to move even if you are holding a direction on the movement pad. This is because both conditions for activating the next skill in a combo are fulfilled when pulse blade finishes. These two conditions are how the combo system decides when to use the next skill.

What about support skills?
Short version: you cannot queue support skills, they will always activate immediately following the previous skill.

Spoiler

Long version: The activation range for support skills is essentially infinity. This is because their “target” is you. And you are always 0m away from you. Thus, they will always activate. There is however one specific condition in which this is false.

Consider the combo

Bless > Gloria

Bless is a support skill, so is Gloria. if you assign both to shortcuts, both can be used without targeting an enemy. But if we put both in a combo and use bless (without targeting an enemy) we find that Gloria is not performed. This is because even if the skills themselves don’t require targets, a target is a requirement for a combo. Combos will end (skills will stop being queued) the moment you do not have a target. If you kill the Target or in the case of our bless combo, never had a target, then the combo will end. Notice how our bless combo works if we have a target beforehand. Even if we never enter combat with that enemy.

This is also why combos that use multiple AoE skills (for the purpose of killing multiple enemies) are useless because the targeted enemy will usually die well before the others do. There is no method that I know of that can bypass this problem. You cannot swap targets mid combo. It does not matter if you are in combat with other enemies, the combo will still end once the initial target dies.

1mp Zantei. AKA: Becoming a parry GOD.
how to use combos and skill queueing in conjunction to both easily perform Zantei and greatly reduce the mp cost.

Spoiler

Alright fun time

So Zantei has a few issues. Firstly, it's 400mp, that's very expensive. With 2k mp that is only 5 Zantei parries and most people won't have 2k mp. But if we put it in a combo to reduce its cost, for example:

Issen > Hasso (save) > Meikyo (cons) > Zantei (smite) > Pulse blade (swift)

Then we run into the issue of we can’t time our Zantei parries properly since Zantei will generally activate immediately after Meikyo, outside of our control. Making it useless as a defensive too and unreliable as an offensive one. How do we use a combo to decrease the mp cost while still retaining the control necessary to parry attacks? By using skill queueing.

Behold the 1mp Zantei:

Pulse blade > Meikyo (save) > Zantei (cons)

By using pulse blade, we can start the combo outside of Zantei's activation range, then move towards the enemy to activate it. “But Kir, I don't have the foresight necessary to run towards the enemy at the right time”. Well that's fine, with a little creativity we don't have to predict the enemy’s attacks, we can react to them instead. Let’s go over our conditions for skill queueing/combos again.

1. The user is within activation range of the queued skill
2. The user is not moving
3. We still have the same target that we started with

The one we want to focus on is rule 2. In other words. “if we don't stop moving, the skill will not activate”. Using this trick, we can run around the enemy and if we stop moving (the trick is to lift your thumb off the screen. As long as your thumb is on the screen the game will count you as moving) within range (rule 1), once the enemy attacks, then the skill will activate and parry.

Using this method, with a mere 1k mp we can parry 10 attacks. Already twice as much as standard Zantei use on a character with half the mp. With 1.5k you can parry 15 attacks, and if you add quickdraw from the shot tree (at max lv, 30% chance, per instance of an attack skill using mp, to recover 100mp) that adds a theoretical 30% more mp for 19~ parries.

At 2k mp with quickdraw you’re looking at around 26~ parries.

There are flaws to this though. First of the Zantei damage is horrible. Since the Zantei is immediately after the save tag that's -60% dmg, and the cons tag reduces that by a further -20% for a 20% dmg Zantei. That's actually a worse mp:dmg ratio than standard Zantei spam. The crit from Meikyo offsets this but only by a tiny amount. Do not rely on 1mp Zantei for damage.

Secondly, if the enemy is too close or moves closer, then this is useless. Worse than useless because it means you’re probably going to eat an AoE while Meikyo is up... you may be able to activate the queued Zantei on reaction, but you need to have a Zantei queued in the first place.

That being said, I don't think I've gone over the benefits of the 1mp Zantei very well. It is stupid cheap, what you lose in mp:dmg you make up for in the ability to parry 1 attack per 1mp. This defensive benefit is important for something that I will cover later.

And since the lv 4 skills have come out, the 1mp Zantei gains extra utility in that it can be used to extend Tenryu. Normal Zantei costs 4mp, and even though Magadachi is easier to use, it's still 3mp. When Tenryu costs 3mp to start and needs an extra 3mp to get to full strength. A 1mp Zantei is cheap and can easily be done within the 10sec of the first Tenryu cast if you eat the first AoE available, giving you 30sec of Max atk speed and 1mp Tenryu.

 

Bow katana. AKA: A non meta build? REEEEEEEE
Why Bow Kata loves 1mp Zantei.

Spoiler

Yes, I main bow katana, fite me. Anyway, bow kata gains a few tricks from the 1mp Zantei combo. Firstly:

Moeba > Meikyo (save) > Zantei (cons)

Is a better combo as Moeba inflicts slow, has a faster animation than pulse, and to top it off has a 14m max range. All while still costing just 1mp.

Secondly, the 1mp Zantei is useful for stalling when you accidentally pull too much aggro. Bow kata users will usually be a good distance from the enemy. So they have lots of time to queue a Zantei and eat direct (non AoE) attacks to buy time for someone else to pull aggro off you. However as stated before this will still disrupt support auras and cross fire charging. Be careful.

Thirdly, I never really covered how long queued skills stay queued.

Skills will stay queued as long as:

1. The original target of the combo hasn't died
2. The target hasn't ended combat with you (normal monsters end combat at 24m+, this doesn’t practically apply to bosses)
3. You haven't performed a different skill or auto attack outside of the activation range of the queued skill

The long and short is, if we queue Zantei and then perform Meikyo while Zantei is queued. Then Meikyo will activate, but Zantei will be dropped and the combo ended. That however is a very useless application if this principal.

If we take a look at our 1mp Zantei we see that Meikyo activates before Zantei is queued. A bow kata user can use their ranged normal attacks to drop Zantei if they don't need it. The result? The 1mp Zantei is not only a 1mp Zantei, but can also be used as a 1mp Meikyo, for boosting the crit of your normal attacks. That's right, same combo TWO different functions. Theoretically this could also be done by using power wave, but bow kata is the easiest and most practical application of this trick.

Lastly bow kata can get around the poor damage of 1mp Zantei by doing something like:

Moeba > Smoke (save) > Meikyo (cons) > Zantei (smite) > Issen/pulse (swift)
For lv3 skills

And:

Moeba > Arm break (save) > Meikyo (swift) > Zantei (smite) > Issen/pulse (swift)
For lv4 skills.

Giving you a queued 1mp Zantei, at 110% dmg. 10% boost might not sound impressive, but this is still for 1mp. And crit boosted by Meikyo, with no penalty to crit damage because of the Katana sub.

There are two things to watch out for. 1 this combo has fairly high aggro, the aggro can actually help with getting a Zantei parry but if you want, sneak can be slotted in and in fact may even increase the Zantei damage as it can put more distance between the save tag and the Zantei, but that leads into the second problem. 2 this combo can root you for some time, it's not as bad as a snipe combo, and you'll be doing plenty of moving to get that sweet Zantei parry, but I've died for sillier reasons.

Shukuchi. AKA: nnnnnnyyyyyYYYOOOOOMMMmmmmmmm...
Why everyone should get Shukuchi

Spoiler

Shukuchi is a fun passive that we can abuse so very much. Shukuchi can be simplified into:

1. Wait till normal attack delay is over (green “next attack” bar)
2. If enemy is outside of normal attack range dash towards them. Stop when you get within normal attack range.
3. Apply a buff which lasts for a very short instance which increases the damage and mp recovery of the next normal attack.
4. Perform a normal attack.

The key point is that Shukuchi itself isn't an attack. You simply perform a normal attack because all the conditions for one have been fulfilled (you tapped the attack button, you are in range, and there isn't a normal attack delay). In other words, the two are handled separately.

Pop quiz time. A katana user has Issen queued, they use Shukuchi to move into katana range. What happens? Do they perform a normal attack? Or do they perform the queued Issen?

I am pleased to say. Issen wins out, Shukuchi does not drop queued skills. And since the conditions for Issen are fulfilled when Shukuchi finishes, Issen is performed. This can be used by anyone that has Shukuchi, for any queued melee skill, not just katana ones. So, if one were to say:

Warcry > hard hit

Then by tapping the attack button after Warcry and activating Shukuchi, you can bypass the “only katana skills can use Shukuchi” restriction and Shukuchi into hard hit!

Sadly, bow kata can't use this technique for the same reason they can use the queue cancelling trick. Bows will normal attack from outside of melee attack range dropping the queued melee skill.

OH WAIT, THEY CAN, HAHAHAHA.

Thanks to the whole “Shukuchi can be used with katana skills” Bow kata can use Issen instead of normal attacking to move within melee range and activate any queued skills. AND THE BEST PART IS THAT ISSEN WON'T ACTIVATE COSTING YOU NOTHING, AHAHAHA!

Therefore, both Katana and Bow Kata can use Shukuchi to close distance and immediately activate a queued Zantei.

Theory Crafting, Kick. AKA: Don’t quote me on this
Someone needs to try this... Please...

Spoiler

DISCLAIMER: none of what is in this section has been tested, I do not have the points to put into kick, nor do I have the orbs to restat. Please forgive me and do not consider me responsible for any loss of efficiency caused to or by anyone who chooses to try this out. Confirmation however would be appreciated.

There is an overlooked skill. one that has great potential to Katana users. It happens to be nowhere near anything a Katana user would look at. I speak… of “kick”

No not “triple kick” from the martial skill tree. Just “Kick” from the Hunter skill tree of all places.

Kick: 100mp, no weapon requirements. Damage is inconsequential (might as well not exist). Inflicts knockback, 90% chance at lv1, 100% at lv10. Knockback distance increases as skill levels up with 7m knockback at max level. Knockback resistance time is (distance * 0.1) seconds. In other words, kick gives 7m of knockback which is resisted for less than a second…

Both knockback and therefore knockback resistance is halved against bosses (field/mini bosses do not count)

Stats were pulled from this thread:

http://toramonline.com/index.php?threads/skill-tree-list-level-150.37578/

First off, Kick is a lv1 hunter skill, with no weapon requirements and no prior skill investment required. this means everyone can invest in it for a little bit of spina and 10 skill points.

Even with the effect being halved against bosses. Kick can be used to instantly create a 3-5m gap between you and the boss for 100mp (kick’s range is 3m but max katana range is 2m). If you use kick in a combo, you can use it to create distance and guarantee your next skill is queued.

Ok… well its not that simple. From what I’ve seen knockback doesn’t keep bosses stationary for long. If you have aggro, its likely that the boss will move back within melee range. If you don’t have aggro this becomes more viable. If you kick an enemy in the back (towards the tank) then they probably wont move from where they’ve been kicked (they’re right next to the tank). Letting you queue your skill in peace.

Kick, by acting as the functional opposite of "pulse blade, run up to enemy". Theoretically allows you to queue melee skills, even if you move within melee range.

Which in turn allows the mainly melee based Katana users to perform 1mp queued smite Zantei.

As an example, combo:

Issen > Hasso (save) > Pommel (cons) > Kick (swift) > Meikyo (cons) > Zantei (Smite) > Triple thrust (cons)

(that Meikyo can be taken out if you expect to have aggro when performing this combo, as if you have aggro, Meikyo will take too long and the boss will close in)

With Meikyo, that Zantei is 3 skills away from the save which means a mere -20% damage penalty, smite increases by 50% giving you a 130% Zantei that you can easily and consistently land, WITH MEIKYO CRIT.

Understand that by the math that makes them 420% MORE EFFICENT THAN A STANDARD ZANTEI NOT INCLUDING THE MP COST OF PRE-CASTED MEIKYO.

Its at this point that I ask myself, why hasn’t anyone tried this yet?

 

reserved for "ZanTank"

 

Kick has very slow animation and counts as a physical skill, which is bad for already bad proration. Moreover a lot of bosses have resistance to knockback. Tried that on staff fu and discarded.

 

No one has tried kick coz knockback as an ailment for bosses just flat out sux.
Some bosses are completely immune to knockback. And even if it works for a boss it also does not cancel any aoes they are using so if they use a strong linear aoe or just any interrupting aoe like flinch/bleed rip that combo.
It is more viable to use support skills like reflex and war cry as queue makers from a distance.
Also idk how exactly do you get 420% (I hope this is one of those blaze it jokes) with meikyo theres 3 skills between hasso(save) and zantei(smite) meaning theres no penalty and only +50% from smite for a total of 150%
Yet all those physical skills will ruin the proration making your zantei much less damage than what it could be for most of the bosses.

 

Also, one more thing I have noticed. Dual Sword skill "Cross Parry" is able do block a linear dash attack even in mid-air. But Magadachi / Zantei can't. This makes me feel very sad. Maybe we should try to make several reports and hope they change mechanic.

 

lemme add this if some people dont know yet.
could be any combo that starts far away and the next skill is a katana (just checked but it can be any skill) that has close range. lets use this example:

impact, hasso(smite), ender(cons)

starting combo from far away, we know that we can start with impact even if we are far away from impact range. char will then dash to enemy and then use hasso(still as part of combo)

another instance is starting with impact far away and moving right after. hasso is still queued and can be activated easier by double tapping the attack button. char will then dash and continue with hasso. this helps for easier activation rather than just walking to the enemy. triple tapping attack when a skill is queued will still dash char but will then cancel the combo and just do a normal attack.

 

I would like to know why no one is doing bowgun katana?

 

because you cant equip it

 

What do you mean? Linear dash attacks in mid air? I havent tried cross parry properly yet but I dont think it is any different from zantei or maga.

 

I want some information as to what exactly knock back resistance entails. are you referring to the flat halved effect of knockback on bosses? because i did consider that but as long as kick was maxed it could create a 3-5m gap which could be used to queue skills. Or do you mean that bosses have another factor which affects the resistance timer and makes it longer than (distance * 0.1 seconds). Or do you mean something else, I would like to know.

(also, the slow animation issue can kind of be gotten around, the kick combo i posted allows you to use kick with a swift tag)

firstly what I've heard abut the save tag is that:

saved skill: -80%
2nd skill: -60%
3rd skill: -40%
all other skills beyond that: -20%

hence, only 130% Zantei damage.

Next, let me explain my math.

Normal Zantei: 100%dmg for 4mp.
Combed Zantei: 130%dmg for 1mp

That means that for 4mp you can get 100% dmg or, four instances of 130% dmg. 4*130 = 520%. the difference is 420%.

yes proration is an issue, not going to defend that. I also didn't consider that bosses could be immune to knock back.

But i do want to add, that if the boss isn't focused on you, its possible to pull this off. I know that knock back doesn't cancel AoEs, but if the boss is using AoEs that center on the target (the tank), or line AoE's extending towards the target (again the tank, not you). Then its plausible to use this combo behind them, and be able to queue a 1mp 130% zantei. which can then be used to parry the next AoE they throw out.

the combo's that i've seen for burst damage zantei are things like:

impact > zantei (smite) > meikyo (cons)

which granted gives you a 150% zantei, but for the same cost of 4mp. and further more, it requires sinking 22 skill points to get impact.

warcry, reflex, quick aura, and meikyo are better. warcry is a team buff. reflex is a lv1 DW skill so only need 1-10 skill points. quick aura is the same and has no mp cost to boot. and Meikyo will likely be invested in by katana users anyway. the only issue i have is that none of those skills have mp costs beyond 4mp meaning that none of them can be used with the save tag and negate zantei mp cost. which then means either zantei deals less dmg with a cons tag or adds more mp cost. Don't get me wrong, this method is still completely viable. consider the combo:

pulse > warcry (save) > quick aura (swift) > meikyo (cons) > zantei (smite) > issen (cons)

which queues a 130% zantei for 2mp. giving a grand total of + 160% efficiency with meikyo crit and warcry buff for added bonus. and has the benefit of dealing very little prioration before the zantei with pulse blade being the only attacking skill.

OK more fun time. didn't mention this before as it had limited use. but any charging attack (a line AoE that the boss moves along dealing damage, think Mino charge or Ganglef shuffles) can easily be auto countered with skills like zantei, magadachi, and cross parry. If you activate a skill at range (not in a combo, just tap the shortcut button you've assigned it too), you:

1. run towards the enemy
2. activate the skill as soon as you get in range

And this can be canceled by inputting a direction on the movement pad. its basically the same thing as skill queueing. Anyway, since the boss moves with its attack, if it charges at you while you are running towards it under these conditions then the skill will activate immediately before taking damage. essentially guaranteeing a zantei parry/ magadachi block/ cross parry block. further more if you have one of those two skills queued (maga cant be used in a combo). then you can just stand still in the AoE and they will auto parry the attack. i found very little use for this as, whats the point of blocking an attack that you can easily dodge? but for people with damage focused zantei combos then they might find it useful.

 

-some bosses are immune and not resistant to knockback.
-4th skill and other skills after the save tag on combo are already 100% dmg and 150% smited.
-if the boss is not focused on you, why are you doing a zantei combo? instead of waiting for boss to do an aoe that who knows if the boss will even do and if someone interrputs and cancels it, use other skills to contribute.

 

Any knockback distance generated by a skill is always halved for bosses. It remains same for mobs/mini bosses. If kick distance is 7m for regular mobs it becomes 3.5m for bosses.
There are some bosses like zolban which are completely immune to knockback (as in it can not be inflicted on them) . You can try and find such bosses.

 

"Forget Zantei, Hasso is easier to use and never misses, no one should use zantei as DPS ever. End of discussion" (this is a joke)

Sorry, I don't use Hasso at all so in my mind "katana dps = Zantei", other skills like Hasso deal comparable amounts of damage without having to parry an attack.

However iirc, Hasso does best with str maxed, and zantei with Dex, there are people who have Zantei maxed and Hasso at half just for Tenryu and Garyou.

For people who only use zantei when targeted, please refer to the "1mp Zantei" section above. For those that rely on Zantei for DPS, it's viable to wait for an AoE so not as to waste most of their Zantei damage. Waiting may actually improve damage as other party members will be damaging the enemy affecting proration.

Lastly (I keep adding things on...) One situation in which it could be useful is:

Pulse > triple thrust (save) > Tenryu (swift) > kick (cons) > Zantei (cons)

Tenryu buff, extended to 30sec with Zantei parry (meikyo can be tacked on to the end if you want high crit auto attacks). All for 1mp. Compared to 3mp to activate and another 3mp to maga for extension.

 

Am I the only one bothered not seeing flashblast in the combo? XD

If you want queueing why not just make this:

Reflex>Warcry(save)>Flashblast(cons)>Kairiki Ranshin(cons)>Meikyou(cons)>Zantei(smite)>ender(cons)

Can be quickly executed at range
1k initial Aggro(from buffs before Zantei)
150% Zantei
No proration
No Impact but 2 mp cost

How to use it when you already got the boss's attention? How would I know, don't have a katana



Also katanas can gain 100+(if you have more than 1k mp) mp in 1 auto attack so I don't know why you would want to get too thrifty with your mp.

 

So you can save mp to first aid your useless teammates XD

The way I see it, everything has a cost. Impact for example, costs 22 skill points to make useful. Granted, impact has great utility, but if you have combos that negate the mp cost, then you don't need impact and can put those 22 skill points elsewhere. War cry gets you a team buff for 10-20 skill points.

But the cost isn't limited to skill points. For example, Meikyo gives you good crit, but has the down side of you having to use Meikyo for crit. There are non Meikyo builds floating around, but those exchange the need for Meikyo with stat investment into crit and equipment. Putting points into HP boost increases your hp, but you can also use Vita Plus as a substitute at the cost of having to stock Vita Plus. Or you could use gear and xtals at the cost of not being able to use that gear or xtal slots to boost other stats.

Yes if you have good AMPR you can eliminate the need for MP efficient combos. But what have you paid to get all that AMPR? gear? Xtal slots? Points into Shukuchi?

 

I see thanks man

 

Uhmm Shukuchi is freaking useful for a katana. I don't know why any katana user wouldn't wanna max that. Most of your Ampr basically comes from that.

10 - base
50 - Shukuchi
25 - Kairiki Ranshin
20 - 2k mp(1 per 100mp)
*Optional 6 - Ampr Consumable(don't know the name)
=105(111) Ampr

Let's say you have 2k mp and 1mp combos but shit ampr. What are you gonna do? Spam skills? What happens if you're out of mp? All you'll be doing is shit on proration and become a baggage after using up your mp.

Of course that doesn't apply if you only ever play normal or hard.

 

as far as i use katana which is almost forever before lv4skills appeared *sigh*
i can tell that i've never have a problem with my mp, imo shukuchi is a must for katana. firstly, it gives huge ampr, secondly you can swiftly closer to your target, and thirdly.. it looks awesome to see your character dashes *-*

and also, only need 1.1k aspd to make your auto attk faster meaning fast mp fills, and it can be done with either quick aura or giga speed potion oh, and kairiki gives another boost of ampr, you can easily get 1mp/auto attk without xtall or even ampr ava.

having lv10 shukuchi is worth more than diamonds. oh, and also dont forget the level cap is still growing.. meaning more skill points to burns in the future

and in katana fullcrit build (str>dex and a little crt), no need of meikyo can do 2mp/zantei which is popular among katana user with combo zantei>flashblast(save)>impact(swift) its not smited but its fast meaning more survival and can do more combo

 

So far playing toram for so long, heavy mp combos suits my playstyle the most, using xtals to boost my mp up to at least 1.6k and some ampr on whatever item i'll get the least dmg loss removing it

why did i choose high mp combos over 1mp? EFFICIENCY!!
You can always smack that heavy dmg combo at the right time for max dmg (max prorate, def down, armor break, dizzy), if you use a long combo by the time your smited skill hits, others with short combos has already dealt dmg and lowered proration

As for my opinion on katana, i dun like the smited and wait for something to counter zantei...
First: i hate it when i cant prorate
next: i can regen that mp back via ampr in 4 autos
then: since the boss wont provide you with a lovely wide aoe to counter every second why not auto to prorate not just wait and dance for something to counter,
last: i can easily tank for non-spammer team members (trusty friends) and as a tank i can also counter boss autos for more dmg...

Basically am a sucker for max proration

how do i use zantei?
Zantei>flash blast(save)>meikyo(swift)
800aggro and it saves lives, plus its dmg is not that bad dealing around 250k-500k max prorated dmg depending on the boss, and since zantei is the opener whenever your in a pinch a quick slap on zantei will save your life...

But hey... this is my playstyle that is yours... To each his own