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Magic Gunner Help

Discussion in 'Toram Online Class Discussions' started by Misneach, Jun 6, 2020.

  1. Misneach

    Misneach Active Member

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    Hi guys, I am making a new character, wondering whether Bowgun sub MD is still viable. Any thoughts/suggestions? Thank you!
     
  2. Insane23

    Insane23 Well-Known Member

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    The highest attack bowgun also has high stability if you equip md (60%, canemofish drop), so I doubt it's bad if we compare just with other non-arrow bg builds.
     
  3. Kaisyl

    Kaisyl Elite Member Elite Member

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    All magic skills pre lv4 aren't exactly worth using as the damage is too low to justify the time needed to execute.

    Guardian beam also isn't available to help provide that chip damage to boost magic damage as it is unavailable for sub MD.

    This means, as a magic gunner, your build is centered around Javelin, impact and magic burst.

    Wizard skills have appropriate execution range but the skills themselves aren't the most useful. Lightening damage is too low for time needed to cast, blizzard is a large circular AoE whilst shot skills are mostly single target, meteor is garbage and the mana gem skill is only gimmicky.

    Hunter skill magic arrow does barely anything to help because it needs arrow for significance.

    With no real way to combine the two, it is lacking at best, gameplay damaging at worst.

    Your main damage skills still come from snipe and cross fire. Sub arrow allows for dual element.

    It's not worth it over a simple bowgun/arrow build. Even designing combos for it leaves you rooted for far longer in comparison.

    It is a fun build however but with guardian beam, staff main/dagger does consistent magic and physical barrage better than all other weapon combinations.
     
  4. VangNir

    VangNir Well-Known Member

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    Maybe it will become like this
    1. Ampr using decoy
    2. Dps using magic: burst (you have high cspd from dex stat)
    3. Burst dmg using cf
    Waiting cf charge by spamming burst.
    It's difficulty is very high but doable.
     
  5. Kaisyl

    Kaisyl Elite Member Elite Member

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    No, that's actually it. You'd get the best proration and best MP regen from the build.

    Currently, if stat focussed, you can have 300 PTS in DEX. After which you can slap the rest in INT.

    This build just doesn't work because by the time you get 500 DEX and 400+INT, crit damage bonus from STR makes any proration bonus from this useless. In fact, proration itself is very fickle forcing you to rely on using skill types other than your main damage skill type which is time wasted compared to maintaining neutral proration for stable damage VS high burst damage.

    Really wish they made stability the crit damage of magic skills z.z and that MTL increased it. It'd make sense too, the more stable the magic structure is, the more damage it'd do.
     
  6. RyeUshio

    RyeUshio The Blue Bull Super Likable Elite Member

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    I made a luk farmer from this build, just so I can farm effectively on Morga map. ^_^
     
  7. Amaymon

    Amaymon Well-Known Member

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    Been doing this for ages. Anyway, with addition of Satellite Arrow it could also be used when you are firing CF so you will have more variations in attack skill. Unfortunately, you really lose out a lot of crit damage.
     
  8. Wimzi

    Wimzi Well-Known Member

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    While I am and always have been a burst fanatic, for Bowgun + MD I’ve always preferred Finale + Crossfire. Because bowgun can’t gain as much MATK from INT or the MATK% stat(since it relies on the conversion skill for most of its MATK which MATK% doesn’t take from) your damage with burst will be underwhelming. Finale will not be as affected by this downside due to its high skill constant. This also means you can prioritize physical damage boosting stats to make up for crit damage loss due to not using the STR stat, while maintaining acceptable damage with finale. Also, after one finale, your CF will already be charged to 3. So it’s very easy to alternate between the two. ^^ and mirage evasion is a solution to this build’s previous problems with vulnerability while casting finale, which didn’t synergize well with CF.
     
  9. Kaisyl

    Kaisyl Elite Member Elite Member

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    You run into another problem using finale if running DEX/STR on BG/MD and that is the diminishing returns on finale damage as level increases. Especially with MD.

    There isn't a way to avoid using Magic Burst with this build because you can capitalize on BG/MD natural high cast speed and you need INT to increase its power which means you have two stats decided for you already, DEX/INT.

    With DEX/INT, you can use finale as a damage skill, especially with mirage evasion. But burst is going to be your main dps considering you won't always hit a boss with magic finale and won't be able to setup for consistent dps during casting like a mage can which is looking like is going to be the case later in the game with all the set up type skills mage seem to get.
     
  10. Red_Fox

    Red_Fox Master of the Ninja Kittens Super Likable Elite Member Epic Member

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    and what skills would that be? besides guardian beam, there are no exclusive magic skills.
     
  11. Kaisyl

    Kaisyl Elite Member Elite Member

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    Magic lance is useful for magic dps whilst you can channel another magic at the same time, either blast or finale. For BG/MD, the best is satellite arrow.

    Magic wall is another setup skill which is more defensive than offensive but whilst in use, you can use other magic skills or other abilities whilst.

    Magic arrows is a bit 'quick' so as you cast it, you have to push out other skills quickly before it ends and fast cast another magic.

    Magic storm creates an area of constant damage.

    With guardian beam, magic blast constantly damages enemies during its long cast time and the damage it unleashes isn't small and follows the target and scales with INT. Also, guardian beam let's you do chip damage with almost all magic skills so when I say they can't set up like a mage, I don't mean it being impossible for them to do so, just that the effect is lesser.

    Why would a BG/MD want to set up magics like a mage when cross fire and satellite arrow works far better in that regard? Fix the garbage traps and you have a perfectly viable build. They are less suited for set up style combat than mages but do have benefits in being able to dish out direct damage more reliably.
     
  12. Red_Fox

    Red_Fox Master of the Ninja Kittens Super Likable Elite Member Epic Member

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    lances unlocks at lv30 and satellite arrow at lv210.
    regarding satellite arrow's small target range, setting up stop with lances would be very beneficial.
    the stop rate with MD is 90% 5 times, while bear trap without arrow has 80% 1 time and needs extra maneuvering.
    the same applies to sub weapon MD, especially because using magic or holy light is the reason why you equip it in the first place.
    same again, but bowguns can combine it with arrow rain.
    i don't know what you are doing, but my blast goes off after 1 second.
    the post-cast hit only applies to the last magic skill in the combo, so once per combo. for the while-cast hits the enemy must target you and be within 8m range.
    it's mainly a defensive spell, since main mages have few to no fast hit attacks to use when cornered.
    hunter skills benefit from arrows, magic benefits from MDs. those are different builds, yet you treat them as the same. it's like arguing about how equipping sub MD on a knight is not as good as a shield.

    the whole purpose of equipping a MD as sub weapon is to become a mage with a weapon.
    they are mages, so they fight like mages. even if it is "less efficient" they have other abilities to compensate.

    fix the garbage magic critical mechanic and you have a perfectly viable build.
    fix the garbage <insert whatever> and you have a perfectly viable build.
    this is not even an argument :p
     
  13. Spanish Bread

    Spanish Bread Well-Known Member

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    Id love to see this with Magic CRT in action.
     
  14. VangNir

    VangNir Well-Known Member

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    You need a friend who willing to spam element slash for your mage.
     
  15. Kaisyl

    Kaisyl Elite Member Elite Member

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    Blast has a rather lengthy post cast animation before the actual damage is applied which is good for dropping a few points of damage but annoying for when you're in a battle you need to be able to move quickly in.

    Blast also has a 3s cast time that drops to 1.5s on 1k CSPD unless this changed which coupled with that animation makes it significant. For you to get 1 second means you have high more than 1k CSPD.

    Sub MD does allow for different weapon mages, sure, never said they weren't mages, just not as efficient with set up style gameplay which could be compensated with traps but traps have the effect of being broken by AoE, having normal ailment resistance timers and are very situation reliant. Traps are garbage and lv205 skills don't change that.

    Even if they don't want to fix traps, what BG/MD gets is the consistent AMPR over the main staff and MD along with multiple skills available to quickly restore MP. It's hard to run out of MP on a BG/MD build unless you use high cost combos all the time.

    Damage wise, normal magic damage cripples your physical damage so you will have to rely on proration to boost your damage. In parties, you're going to have a bad time trying to boost your damage through proration as opposed to critical damage which is only affected by you. Therefore, with no significant crit damage, your physical dps falls behind all other physical dps unless you go the route of DEX/STR and in that case it's best you go for arrow sub which lets you use dual element rather than struggle and rely on proration for more damage.

    Forgoing the physical damage to using it for proration, you then gain a mage with constant MP regen all things considered. The trigger range of magic doesn't change with BG/MD, only the damage diameter and attack counts. Which doesn't make it much different from a magic device with decoy shot on its build honestly. Only that if you work around it, you can use resonance to restore HP from MP seeing as MP regens stupid fast for BG/MD.

    Also, if someone wants to make a fairy knight build, why not? Evasion tanks are a thing, just not very useful in toram yet.
     
  16. Misneach

    Misneach Active Member

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    Thank you everyone for your insights. I think I get the general idea, I'm probably just go ahead with trying the build anyway. After all, I find part of the fun in Toram is versatility in building your character. Thank you all for your inputs! ^^
     
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  17. Kaisyl

    Kaisyl Elite Member Elite Member

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    You'll definitely have fun with the build, so gl!
     
  18. Balugbog056

    Balugbog056 Well-Known Member

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    BG+MD is suited for multi boss.

    -Good for 1:1 Proration for multi-target using Burst+CF (the main target you should use impact+non cf for charging both burst+cf)
    magic:arrow with chain cast also good combo burst charging (to make 50% motion burst)

    -7750 CSPD method for magic prorating for multi target to increase CF DMG to all target (the main target dont matter for spam burst cuz your party will balance it due to many physical user)

    -you can also utilize element slash to Magic crit weaken to main target if your accuracy is match to boss. (since BG is Dex main). most event boss is reasonable stats compare to nm,ulti brainded stats scale

    im also considering to make Hybrid DPS (range-type) bowgun+md but im waiting for 5th anniv weapon

    i already have 1h+md hybrid (both crit) but element slash mechanics killing by
    -evasion
    -guard (burst rip dmg)
    -crit resist (im wishing that resonance give fix buff halves all buff like opposite of regretless)
    -crit should scale with physical CRT if they made element slash affected by accuracy
     
  19. FrostHydra97

    FrostHydra97 Active Member

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    I'm new to Toram, and i'm also using a magic gunner build. Since i can't even reach 3k cspd, let alone 5.5k, with my current budget, i'm using Finale as my main magic damage dealer (though i also have storm because my farm mage was too weak back then). I also have MP Charge max lvl and Maximizer, along with Decoy Shot and Resonance (idk what the hell was i thinking when i did that, i only thought it could serve as emergency mp recovery as i dislike Kairiki's ignite debuff).

    The problems with my current build is that i only have somewhat "average" damage output while having redundant mp most of the time. Using food buff and xtal helped me reached -100% aggro, allowing me to spam skills more without worrying too much about aggro, but unless i die or don't use Decoy Shot, my mp bar would likely be in the state of being full to near full most of the time, making MP Charge and Maximizer rarely have their use. About Resonance, i mainly use it for the buff or to recover HP.

    Well, as i'm still new to the game, and there's still a hell lot to learn, i'm planning to fix my skill build in the future (I'm still gonna stick with bowgun md build, not gonna let it go). But with the new hunter and wizard skills and the "balance adjustment" and also the properties of some current useful skills, now idk which skill to choose/use, and how should i build my skill set with the limited amount of SP. I.e.:
    - Snipe, Satellite Arrow, Magic: Burst, and Imperial Ray, they can be used while waiting for CF to charge. But each has their disadvantages, and CF charge time is kinda quick if i'm not planning to fire at full charges, and also I can't choose them all.
    - Spell Burst is kinda good now but if i want to have it, i also have to forfeit a few other skills.
    - GSW is a great speed buff, but the resistance reductions scare me the hell out. It's like tripling the damage i would receive, and right now i still suck at evading so...
    - Idk should i stick with Finale or try to raise my cspd instead and switch to Burst.
    - If i can only choose one, should i pick Snipe or Satellite Arrow.
    And a few other wondering. But in conclusion, I just want to make the most out of my build and not being a hindrance.

    Currently I had made several options because i can't choose everything i want, if i pick this then i have to forget about that, and having this and/or not having that is gonna have advantages/disadvantages compare to other choices, etc... Well, CF is a must have, i think? But the rest i gotta choose, like:
    - If i want to have CF, Finale/Burst, Sat. Arrow, Imperial Ray, and GSW to use, i gotta give up either Snipe, Maximizer, or Storm/Burst.
    - If i want to have Spell Burst to increase my magic damage output (and especially Imperial Blast damage), then i'd need to give up either the Hunter Skill tree, or Snipe + either GSW or one branch of Magic skill to have enough SP.
    - GSW is great, but the way it works made me hesitate and want to try increasing my own aspd by other means instead. Beside, i wonder does that 30% motion speed increase really necessary and worth the setback. I mean, it doesn't matter how fast you are if you're dead, right?
    - If i want to use burst, i'd need to give up one max lvl skill (and also get a lot of cspd), though with it, it might not be necessary to max lvl Mirage Evasion. And whether should i use both Finale and Burst, or just Burst alone.
    - Or give up Wizard and Hunter skill, instead get both Finale and Burst, and get Spell Burst
    - Also whether i should keep Maximizer, or just Decoy Shot and Resonance are enough

    Well, my choices might not be the best but... it'd be fine as long as it's not too terrible, right? Still, i'd be grateful if someone can evaluate the possible choices and give their opinion and suggestions about which choices would be "best". It seems kinda hard to have a good-while-also-"interesting" build in Toram, so i think it's best to learn things from other experienced people.
     
  20. VangNir

    VangNir Well-Known Member

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    Have you used support skill such as brave aura and high cycle?
    Imo all ranged character should have at least brave aura.
     

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