Some fun ideas for stats and skills (we all know this wont happen)

Well stats in this game are seriously unbalanced with STR being the main controller of damage multiplication (crit dmg) and DEX being the absolute worse since crit rate does its job but better, aiding the damage multiplier that is STR.

So, some changes to stats should be made for balancing no?

STR: It makes no sense for attacks like magic to gain critical damage from STR. Magic isnt brute force. So in this instance, the critical damage gain from this stat should affect only physical crit damage.

INT: Whilst getting magic defence and a small amount of mana from this stat makes sense, it doesnt. This should be the stat to give magical crit damage. This should also be the stat to affect magic stability with it being abysmal if the user has no INT.

Baring those two stats, lets look at flee and hit. By default, this should increase by:
1) Player level (1:1)
2) Stat distribution

So the idea for AGI and DEX would be to act as multipliers in addition to flat stat.

AGI: Grants flee and takes the total flee of the player and increases it by a multiplicative value.
Ie: Total flee = Player Flee + (Player Flee * (AGI/100))

At first this seems unfair but then you need to understand that some bosses have absurdly high hit rate on high difficulty. With this, at 100 AGI, if a player would have 300 flee, it would total off to 600 (not actual values).

DEX: Grants hit and takes the total hit of the player and increases it by a multiplicative value.
Ie: Total hit = Player hit + (Player hit * (DEX/100))

Same as AGI really.

VIT: Tbh, i cant see anything wrong with this stat other than it works, even at low level which is unfair stat 'weighting'.

Of the personal stats, LUK is too heavily based on RNG and has no real use in any situation other than being a drop rate booster.

Since this is a 'class free' game, the bonuses to skills shouldn't be affected by base stats like STR and INT they should be affected by end stats like ATK and MATK.

Welp, heres to another waste of text that no doubt won't make it into the game. Still, its better than talking about the same stuff on the forums all the time no?

 

Actually when you look at the base ATK value gains for most weapons, STR is top followed immediately by DEX. DEX is the second best attacking stat as the weapons that have it as an attacking stat gain a lot of ATK from it, which is needed for crit damage to be more effective in the long run. DEX does not supply crit rate, and supplies something many love to have, stability. Crit rate would not do it's sjob whatsoever, and DEX has a cemented role with STR with raising base damage and stabilizing damage. The only reason it is second is because accuracy is a useless stat rn.

Even with this supposed fix, flee would still be a very useless stat. You are right bosses have very high hit rate, but they also have too many perfect hit skills. Maton Sword basically is an entire battle of perfect hit, meaning dodging would never occur.

I think that's the point..? LUK is fine as it is, as it's a filler stat for people who want to gamble, and the game is already based on RNG so gaining an ability to sway it slightly in your favor is good. I don't see any needed fix to LUK.

"class free" means that you don't fall into things such as "mage" or "paladin" which is already very hard to do. Doing this would likely throw a good amount of the current "balance" out the window, as it is easier to raise ATK than STR/DEX. Since the cap of stats is 255/510 it is easy to balance the game with them. ATK has no reachable cap, you would have to balance every skill assuming a 1700 atk knuckle user uses the same skill as a 3000 atk halberd user. Already, you see the issue here. It is much better and easier to balance the same knux and halb assuming 255 agi vs. 255 str.

 

Nah, stability comes from STR for most weapons in this game. Magic devices are the ones that gain stability from DEX.

Well look at that. And I'm sure even when the manual evasion and dodge are released, there would be the same problem because you can't evade a full map AoE.

That's the thing, knux skills or knuckle by nature is supposed to be a high attack speed weapon. If anything, it's skill multipliers should be affected by attack speed and not raw ATK stat. When I say end stats, that meant stuff like ATK, MATK, DEF, MDEF, stuff you see in the stat screen but aren't directly distributed to.

 

OHS gains more stability from DEX than STR
THS, Knuckles and MD only gain stability from DEX
Bow and Halberd gains the same stability from DEX as STR
Staff and Bowgun only get it from STR
Katana gets more stability from STR than DEX

Thats what guard would be for, and plus full map AoE aren't bad, they would be CF checks. The issue is not with the player's evasion, it's with the bosses accuracy.

Then think about it like this, if STR and DEX increases ATK, AGI increases ASPD, and INT increases MATK...
What would be easier to calculate with? Higher values that reach up to 2000 or 10000, or values that go up to 500. Why would we need to raise values when the lower ones do just fine? Raising values would mean exponential growth, causes the powerful to become much more powerful in the long run, while the weak would stay weak.
Plus, calculating damage with end values would force every weapon to go down the best path, and kill most experimentation. If your Knuckle skills only scale with ASPD, then staff fu would likely be thrown down the drain. Currently it scales with AGI so if people choose not to use AGI it can still do well with enough work.

 

Huh, yeah, found the guides, my bad

And then they release goliath shot which is basically CF. I'm guessing the devs want players to have a build which focuses on both guard and evasion or maybe assassin T4 changes this.

Well yes and no. larger integer values don't really do much in coding unless the values are absurdly large. In actuality, the calculation would be just to change the divisor.

Eg: Player has 10k ATK? 10k/1k = 10x multiplier.

I understand that skill multipliers ALREADY do this for stats like ATK and MATK although indirectly but then you have skills like Sonic blade or even the DW skill tree which could benefit by having an ATK SPD multiplier. So far the only skill in the game that does this is Chrono Strike from T4 Halberd and what it does is increase the hit count of the skill (Unless I'm mistaken?).

What I'm saying is that we need more involvement of end user stats so as to avoid having everything cookie cutter later on.

Eg: DEX = hit, stab, ATK

Scaling by DEX gives just that but having the skill scale based on HIT gives leeway for another skill to scale based on Stability no?

 

Changing divisors and stuff is kinda hard to do when skill multipliers hit very specific amounts already, and having those skill multipliers increase by the 100 or 1000 would make people who have more and more ATK from xtals do much more damage than the same person who has the same equipment but no xtals. Even though the same is already very xtal heavy, this would likely push it even further since everything would be funneled out though numbers that are easier to raise than STR or DEX. Plus, with the game updating more and more, there would be little future proof behind this because ATK can go higher and higher while things like STR and DEX stay around the 255/510 area. Skill multipliers can become higher and higher as the game goes on and balancing that would be a nightmare, currently, skill multipliers raise slowly enough that it's easier to work around and some dont even change at all.

Having a skill based on HIT would be the same as having a skill based on DEX, mostly because DEX is the only stat that increases accuracy.
Having a skill based on stability would be similar to having skills based on DEX/STR, but change based on weapon. While this seems like a good idea, some weapons would use it better than others mostly due to how bad the stat distributions are and that some weapons have unnaturally high/low stability.

The main issue is that there are so many end values that it is just easier to balance around the 9 stats that the players can directly impact: STR, DEX, VIT, INT, AGI, LUK, MTL, TEC, and CRT.

I understand what the idea is, I'm just going against you so you can think about this more

 

I can see where this is going.

In that it is no different than what is already being done. True but look at it this way, You have an entire skill tree scale with AGI, i.e: Martial yet you are a DEX/STR build. Granted because of STR the dmg wouldn't be low, it just shows unfavourable stat weighting in favor of the STR stat. It however means that because the stat scales on the base stat, it means that your aspd and flee are useless factors in determining any effect of the skill.

It also seriously cripples the need for such stats when blacksmithing, with players only using like 3/10 of all stats in the game. It's a horrible waste of potential (Get the pun )

Also, because of base stat scaling, you essentially destroy the viability of certain skills, like the gattling knife which very well could scale on motion speed, hit and stability making it usable for builds which aren't STR/AGI/DEX and allow for equipment to play a stronger role.

Yeah it may be easier to scale on base stats but it ruins the potential of the game in the long run where every player builds on critical and attack stats. If the devs are keen enough, they could also use this to force players to build for more survivability.

eg: Shield Bash deals damage equal to defense affecting multiplier.

 

The reason why ASPD and Flee are useless in determining any effect of the skill is because they are auxiliary effects that are supposed to be useful enough to be invested in by itself, and in reality they are. People focus on ASPD and Flee already and can make usable and sometimes amazing builds focusing on those while also focusing their base statline. ASPD makes your attacks faster and you have more motion speed, Flee is supposed to allow you dodge more and tank attacks better (even though it doesnt because of boss accuracy being too high). By themselves they are already good enough things to invest into and giving them more things they can do would break them. ASPD is incredible useful, since every weapon will benefit a lot from it. It's why GSW is popular. Allowing ASPD to giving you a bump up in skill attacks would break the stat to all oblivion.

The main reason why people don't focus on certain stats for blacksmiths is 100% because of the "crit hits never miss" and that most other stats dont work as intended. If accuracy, flee, and evasion worked as it is supposed to work, then people might actually use them more.

Gatling Knife does scale with them indirectly, mostly because motion speed makes the attacks come out faster, hit allows all of them to hit, and stability just makes the attacks more likely to do higher damage. If skills like GSW were to make the RAW damage of Gatling higher (because of the +10% Motion Speed) and Berserk making it lower (because of the - Stability), then I would say that that kills the viability and balance more than STR/AGI/DEX. At least STR/AGI/DEX allows people to choose which stats they want and have Gatling Knife as an option for quick medium damage for lower MP, making it more universal.

The game does have a lot of potential, but I dont think that this is a point of intrest that needs fixing yet, everything has a use it's only how useful it is that matters. Making skills use these already useful things to scale damage makes things so much more broken than it needs to be.

Also Shield Bash scales with VIT and defense doesnt do anything past ~300 or so, so it's actually better than it scales off VIT.

 

If it were only an auxiliary effect then it should've been hidden like ailment resist and critical rate but unfortunately, they are not and even worse, they are soft capped by badly implemented limitations which ATK, MATK, C.DMG and CRT are not. Although at the same time, C.DMG and CRT are aux stats.

This keeps leading to the point of unfair stat weighting since only the prior mentioned stats and who you keep pushing for the Base stats only since those aux stats are basically terrible in game as a function. Ok, then why not buff the amount provided? The rate this game is going at, at 500 AGI, the most flee you'd get on normal arm is +500, DEX is the same with hit whilst if you added a scaling factor on the stat itself, you'd get more base usability.

eg:
Hit (current) = DEX //Too linear and at 500 DEX, you only get 500 Hit, which is extremely wasteful.
Hit (proposed) = DEX + (DEX * DEX/100) //The first part grants a flat amount of hit equal to the character's assigned DEX whilst the second part grants additional Hit based on the amount of DEX assigned with an additional multiplier every 100 pts assigned. At 500 DEX, you're looking at 3k Hit which at those levels I am completely sure would not be overpowered.

As for the defense stats, well, with how easy DEF, flee and MDEF is to raise in this game, I think they should begin to influence the aux stats beyond a certain value rather than remain as dead stats.

eg:
flee = evasion rate (or even evasion rate recovery based on how the manual system they wanna implement works)
def = phys gaurd power
mdef = magi guard power

As for gattling knife, yeah I suggested that as an example but look at it this way:
1) Motion speed should influence the number of attacks within the time frame you can use gattling knife for (Hit count is a way to boost overall damage)
2) Stability influences the damage of each knife (Currently calculated as a whole)
3) Hit determines whether each knife will hit (Currently calculated as a whole) and maybe act as a damage modifier
You already have ATK, C.DMG and CRT affecting the damage, why specify it to STR, AGI and DEX?

Stats like Hit could act as a damage multiplier for certain ranged physical attacks (Shot skills)

 

It doesnt matter if it's shown or not. The game should show you everything, actually.

The stats that you've mentioned are only bad because of de facto implements. Hit, Evasion, and Dodge only suck because bosses have too high HIT and EVA.

Why should we buff the players when it's easier to balance by nerfing the bosses?

I honestly have no idea what you mean here.

Because
STR - Effects CDMG, ATK (OHS,Staff, Halberd), and Stability
AGI - Effects Motion Speed, ASPD, and ATK (Knuckles, Halberd)
DEX - Effects Hit, Stability, ATK(OHS, Bowguns)
Every stat there except CRT is under STR, AGI, and DEX. You dont need to complicate it if what we have does it already. You just gotta choose which stat you want.

Dont multiply numbers in a game where 1m damage is already common, it'll just make it bigger.

 

Well, if i recall the problem in flee and accuracy is because of the accuracy and the flee from the bosses itself is too damn high, especially in higher difficulty (like wth both of those stat multiplied by 2, 4 and 6 for higher diff, just like another stat of the boss), they should've differentiate the multiplier of each stat for each difficulty

 

Yeah, I don't understand why they game refuses to show you your crit rate, ailment resis, etc but anyways, hopefully they'd fix that.

The change to the Hit and Flee by allocation is more for the fix to the stat weighting in which, STR reigns supreme. Sure you can nerf bosses but at the end of the day, nerfing them would make gaining the stat useless hence they have no choice BUT to buff the player stats rather than to nerf the bosses or at least find a way for players to lower boss accuracy and dodge efficiently (Which there are, it's just not common as most skills focus too much on direct damage and not much else.)

Gattling relies on STR && AGI && DEX not STR or AGI or DEX meaning it's not pick one stat but use all thrree for maximum effectiveness.

 

Actually (STR + DEX + AGI)/3000 does not mean you need STR && AGI && DEX to get the max effectiveness, it just means that you need to spend all your points in STR or DEX or AGI to get max effectiveness, as long as ALL the stats are in STR AGI or DEX. So 255 STR + 255 AGI would be the same as 255 AGI + 200 STR + 55 DEX in terms of skill multiplier.

The bolded statement is contradictory. If you balance the bosses based off the characters there wont ever be a need to buff the players that much as long as the bosses and players gets buffed proportionately. Nerfing the bosses would give the stat more use as people dont need to put everything into CRT to hit a boss and can focus on damage instead of 100% CRT.

 

Toram logic is so different that stats gets some hidden bonuses.

Imo, this what the stats should be:
STR:
Adds attack, stability(0.05*(Str)%) and pierce (0.04*(STR)%).

INT:
Adds Magic attack,MpRegeneration [regen even in combat, 0.2*(Int) every 2sec] and Magic Pierce (0.04*(Int)%).

VIT:
Adds HP, HP regen [regen even in combat, 1.5*(Vit) every 2sec] and Resistance (0.1*(Vit)).

AGI:
Adds attack speed and motion speed[0.05*(Agi)%]. Absolute Dodge[0.1*(Agi)%] and Evasion Rate (0.08*(Agi)%).

DEX:
Adds Accuracy and Absolute Accuracy [0.1*(Dex)%]. Mp Cost Reduction (0.4*(Dex)). -100mp at 255 Dex. Only 200mp skills and above are affected.

CRT:
Adds Critical Rate(3.4*(Crt)) and Crit Damage(0.2*(Crt)).

MTL:
Same as before but adds Fractional Barrier (0.1*(Mtl)) and barrier cooldown reduction (Base CD-(0.08*(Mtl)sec)). -20 sec 255 MTL.

TECH:
Same as before.

LUK:
Same as before and increases damage output for (0.04*(LUK)) at a 25% chance. 10% damage increase at 255LUK.

 

Then what if that player invested some small amount of stat into VIT? Even if the player has the same stats as another player with full STR/AGI/DEX, they will be held back DPS-wise by a stat they have limited control over.

Players will still build full crit for the simple fact being that crit doesnt miss. They'll instead need less crit now and be able to hit everything in the game with no graze and always with critical damage.

Not only unchallenging, it makes the game too linear at that point.

By implementing a scaling factor, you make that stat more important the establish the characters base whilst you work on the output or end stats so the equipment diversity becomes important yet won't grossly affect the character.

 

Then it would be the same as if you changed it to Stability, Motion, and Hit. If I invested a little into VIT, I didnt invest into the stats that raise my Stab, Motion, or Hit. In both scenarios investing into Vit would hold back DPS and thats the point, in RPGs you choose to lower your DPS by investing into defenses.

A scaling factor actually makes it just as linear, as a simple solution to not having enough HIT would be to just add more DEX. There is no real solution in scaling up the values when you can scale down the existing values. It's easier to figure out when something is too powerful than to see if something is not powerful enough.
There's a reason why I said even your fix would do nothing, as you said, "Crit Hits Never Miss". If they got rid of it and scaled down the boss EVA and HIT multipliers then there would be no need in implementing a scaling factor when it just makes numbers exponentially high for no reason. I would love a reason to why you want the values of the players to go up instead of the bosses going down, because I have not seen any good reason.

 

An easy way to fix the crit never miss crap would be to have graze by random damage between 0% stab and at max, half the base stab.

No player would want to permanently deal half or less damage (especially DPS players) and would be forced to invest in some accuracy.

Adding a scaling factor means that you dont have to make high difficulty bosses just walking lumps of HP, which would happen if you just arbitarily lowered the hit and flee of all high difficulty bosses.

Otherwise, if they do lower it, the best thing they could do (which they should have done from the start) was add new boss mechanics. Like Roga gaining constant minion spawn at hard, a jumping attack at nightmare and an all map AoE at ultimate (all new mechanics present at ultimate).

The devs tried the lazy way out and now its hurting everything. With scaling stats, you'd at least have to get specific build types for certain bosses or be able to boost up hit and flee easier from +STAT equipment.

 

I do not understand how HP fits into a debate about HIT and EVA, but I'll humour you. Lowering HIT and EVA makes bosses easier to hit, making the currently HP totals of NM/ULTI more manageable, as opposed to the walking lumps of HP that is the speed demon bosses we have now. Allowing people to hit the bosses easier would make more people able to kill the bosses faster than they would right now and make the high HP make more sense in terms of difficulty. Adding a scaling factor would do the same thing, if not worse. As your HIT gets higher and higher you get to hit the bosses but if you DONT invest as much into this scaling factor (which is more of a exponential factor if you do the math) you will still be where we are already, not able to hit and the walking lumps of HP are harder to fight.

 

HP is a defensive stat much like HIT and FLEE. High HP means that it is harder to kill by virtue of endurance. Flee does the same thing but only in that less of your attacks hit whilst Hit makes it so that the boss can hit you more often and past a certain amount, that more often becomes always.

You nerf the hit and eva of these bosses and suddenly, you find yourself simply employing the same style you used for normal, hard, nm and ulti. Basically, you get more for now effort on your part and by nerfing those boss stats, you give players even more reason to ignore hit and eva since they can hit the boss more and attacks can graze less, they will focus harder on ATK, CRT and CDMG.

The strongest build then becomes STR/DEX/CRT because theres no reason to even dodge anymore, especially given all the escape and invincibillity skills that exist in the game.

High difficulty bosses should be just that, high difficulty. They should require high end preparation or specialized equipment yet at the same time, not completely cripple the character in other aspects of the game, hence the scaling.

With scaling they gain a substantial amount of base to work multipliers off of and in the event a new boss comes along, having an established base in another stat means you can easily account for the difference with a bit harder work in your equipment.

Although, point aside, I can see your point when we begin to look at bosses like ornlarf who has like 4800? Flee on ultimate. You wont hit that even now with current scaling nor late scaling at 500 DEX with 3k hit. Applying a bigger scaling just makes it absurd as well.

The best in this scenario then is instead of making hit and flee a difference equation, make it a quotient.

Rate = Hit/Flee //Rate is never allowed to go below the minimum based on skill passives and buffs.

 

Understand that my point is that scaling up is the same thing as scaling down. Please give me a reason that scaling up is better, since all I see are the same values but multiplied up to be bigger