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What would be your reaction to someone using mana recharge in a party?

Discussion in 'Toram Online Class Discussions' started by Komibii, Jul 19, 2020.

  1. Komibii

    Komibii [TITLE] Elite Member

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    I was thinking about making a support character and I wanted to use mana recharge. My support build was going to use CF since it would allow me to focus on supporting while still allowing me to do some damage (because a lack of damage is one of the reasons support is seen as useless). Everyone would regenerate mana faster, which would increase the party's overall dps, but I would get a huge damage nerf and I was thinking that a lot of people would see using a skill like this as being counterproductive. How would you react to it?
     
  2. Unetéro Kenora

    Unetéro Kenora Well-Known Member

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    ask asobimo for Support rework?
    I have said it before I will say again: as long as Bosses/mini.b/Mobs do 90% of your life on Magnetic damage hits, and we have revita, Supports will never be trully useful.
    also loosing the buffs because you got hit is nonsense.
    Just having another DPS would probably do more to the party overall than any amount of buffs Supp can give.

    I'm sorry to be so pessimist and just not answering you at all.. But it's just Toram's Reality right now. as bad as it is.
    DPS is not just overrated or "People JusT WaNT DmEGE", Support and many other Helping styles just aren't Truly viable. Thus the more DPS the more you "Support""' your team.

    So.. try to ask for a Rework on Support, I'm planning to do so soon and write to asshobimo about Knuckles.
    If people contacted asobimo more, I truly think we would have more attention to these problems, instead of having them releasing useless High level skills.
    Nothing changes if Nobody speaks up..
     
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  3. Red_Fox

    Red_Fox Master of the Ninja Kittens Super Likable Elite Member Epic Member

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    my reaction: "cool"

    the penalty is just 25% on the caster, it doesn't actually hurt the party.
    people could equip Ring of Greed, which has the same penalty but only benefits themselves and you will never know.

    and if 25% of 1 character carries 25% of the whole party's dps, then something is wrong with the non-support characters.
    even if each party member provides equal 25% of party power (which they usually do not), you lose only 6,25% of party power.

    bad proration takes 50% of everyone's damage. and there are also people who spam finale outside of guardian range.
    i'd rather party with a support char than one of those.
    if people are arguing that another glass cannon dps is better because more dps, they should summon their decoy shot with a smite tag for more dps and furry off.
     
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  4. Unetéro Kenora

    Unetéro Kenora Well-Known Member

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    TL;DR at end.

    ???
    If you want to address me directly do so, instead of being childish enough to use indirect 'responses' and offending me, who didn't intend on offending anyone and made it clear. It's coward of you, Unless you are doing out of arrogance. None is good.

    It's clear that you took it like if I told the guy to not even try the class, like the people who exclude different build ideas.
    To the OP, I'm not tying your hands here to stop you, I will be honest, I don't really recommend it, But if it ends up working for you then my sincere congratulations.
    To you, wheter you like it or not I'm stating facts, Supports haven't been Truly useful in a long time, or will you Lie to me and say you see 20 supports looking and entering Partys everyday? I don't think so.
    Just like Knuckles, Support Skill tree is flawed and should give more attention, and Incompetent asobimo needs to work on it again (rework) or re-design the game in order to not have bosses one shot you by unavoidable basic attacks, allowing supports to actually heal something instead of needing to revive a dead body. again. and again.
    Just look at alchemia Story for example: Mobs deal 1/4 of your life per round while being extra tanky, Supports can take this time window do act.
    You Need a healer in alchemia for Raids, since they are so important. (they give shields too)

    "and if 25% of 1 character carries 25% of the whole party's dps, then something is wrong with the non-support characters."
    First: I did not say One singular character would "Carry" The party, I intended to say that, Even with all the useful-ish buffs and extra damage One support can provide, One more DPS would do the same if not more, and that's you assuming that the party damage is literally the same, some may have less DPS and some more, I guess in a case were Only one DPS is available to the party, buffing his DMG output with a support would be nice. BUT, that's EXXXTREMELY situational.
    again, If supports really were so good we would've been seeing more of them (Before you put more words in my mouth or twist my words> THEY DON'T NEED TO BE EXTREMELY POPULAR, Just good enough to the party, But the Fact we don't see a single sup Speaks Volumes to how useful it is.

    Ironically, My Tank/Mage/Healer build gets to be far more effective than pure support, I assume Healing the living players is impossible (since it is), so I took Heal, First aid To revive people in 3 Seconds or less. Some parties literally called me "the back bone of pt" Due to how I could literally revive the entire thing back at venana. < Point here is, Ironically, Supporting the dead ends up being more effective. Because if someone takes damage they are instantly dead or Revita saves them in the speed of Lag before I even see they took Damage.
    also Finale being magical just makes things easier. I use Sneak attack to not be targeted also.

    "their decoy shot with a smite tag for more dps and furry off."
    This is just you being stupid. Honestly, Is this seriously your counter argument? again, Be pissed as much as you like, at the end of the day supports just aren't so good and another DPS fills the Slot decently enough. I only saw one singular Youtuber ever Maining Support and basically no one else in 4 Years of Toram.

    I Want things to get better, I think you did not catch the demn point, People should reach to asobimo more and try to make things better, I Firmly believe that, Unless people got ignored by their support team) they should start mailing asobimo Devs and describing in detail the problems and how They could FIX it.
    Mute voices accomplish nothing,
    Pretending that 'Everything is fine jast BEliV YouRSElF' acomplish Nothing. It furrying enables the neglectful behavior asobimo has toward certain classes IF NOT The entire godamn game.
    and this Forum is neither Oficial or heavily looked by asobimo for Opinions on the game (I do not doubt they check, But certainly they don't check too much if that's the case)
    I am aware that saying supports are not good is not nice or kind, or whatever positive adjective, But whether you Like or not, Support is neither good, viable or popular, It's the Company's fault and I Want to raise awareness to people that they might should start Speaking up TO asobimo, instead of shouting in this Sound proof room this Forum is, Seemingly hoping that the Devs stumble upon their complaints.

    Wheter you get pissy about it, My intention was honestly positive, Support sucks, Other classes Like MD and knux also sucks, The OP is not the Only one here who wants to do something cool but Isn't viable, I Relate a lot since I wanted to do so much in this game, I would actually love being a supp, It's fun, But the game was not designed to furrying include Supports.

    I don't even know why you got pissy, I was very much polite and tried to help.
    I'm not joking when I say to reach out to asobimo as the solution, because it ultimately is and all we can do is dance around the problems until it is solved.
    Or pretend nothing is wrong like you.

    TL;DR:
    If you have time to type you have to read, crucify your lazyness and do some effort reading. Debating works like that.
     
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  5. Insane23

    Insane23 Well-Known Member

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    Cast both brave aura and mana recharge, penalty stacks addively with brave aura, resulting in only -5% dmg debuff. That isn't a big deal imo
     
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  6. Unetéro Kenora

    Unetéro Kenora Well-Known Member

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    Ironically enough, I have seen this Enabling poop' behavior before, people in the Past trashing me for saying knuckles Suck and "IT iS NoT BaD YoU aRE WhINiNG" somthinsomthing.. doing the "Nothing bad is happening, boots I love boots lik lik"
    and OOOoooooh, look at it... asobimo listened, Crusher skills were Born and literally almost everyone agrees it is STILL bad.
    Crusher mains either are hopeful masochists like me or just simply give up.

    I don't care much if you don't agree, time will prove me right again.
    Sounds cocky I know, But what to do If I was right all along and everyone is adored to be steped on?
    Meh.
     
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  7. LapizLazuli07

    LapizLazuli07 Active Member

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    You can do a semi-support wherein you are still technically a DPS but you'd be able to give some buffs.
    I havent tried for myself yet but you'd be better off using Dancer skills for party MP recharge.

    Support skill Auras arent very good since just one hit you have to recast the buff. If you're not mage, it'll take a while to get that MP back. The MP recharge support skill is a little slow. Unless your party members are looking at their active buffs, they wont notice it. Hell they probably wont even know what it means.
    BUT if you think you're good enough to keep an Aura running and can stay close enough to your teammates to buff them, and willing to spend some points, I recommend Quick Motion. Downside is that it'll eat up your AMPR so it's a more of a Mage thing to use, but Physical DPS loves it.

    Bow skills got a nerf and the ailment arrows do more damage when the ailment is active, so maybe you can use those for damage. One of those arrows do lethargy on boss and that is a nice thing since it reduces the damage the boss can do. Also there are bosses that get squishy or have their DEF reduced when inflicted with a certain ailment like Slow on Wandering Wheel. You can search around the forums for this information.
    Satellite Arrow has Physical Pierce so maybe that's still viable for your DPS.

    Maybe you can also consider getting War Cry. I dont know about you guys but I dont notice this buff too often in my parties. I see builds and they exclude War Cry since they assume another party member would have one.

    Level 10 First Aid would be essential. Just 2 Aids and dead party mems will be ready to go again soon enough. This is optimal for when you have glassy teammates on difficult bosses, and on emergencies like when Tank died, you have to be quick on reviving it.
    and last maybe invest in having good HP, it's already not so good when your DPS aint very high, what's worse is when you keep on dying.

    So yeah, Full on support builds arent very Meta rn. Everybody expects you to be doing some damage to the boss unless you have OP teammates that kill it before you can even cast your damage skills. You'd be better off having some skills that give a buff alongside your main damaging skills.
     
  8. Insane23

    Insane23 Well-Known Member

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    Lol wtf xD
     
  9. Red_Fox

    Red_Fox Master of the Ninja Kittens Super Likable Elite Member Epic Member

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    i didn't, and i always quote specific lines when i do (like this)
    i didn't deny that, but i responded specifically to Mana Recharge, ignoring the rest of the support tree
    if it's not significantly more powerful, i don't see why adding another attacker rank competitor would be favourable
    i did send feedback about various things and i still do. i just don't share it, since that topic tends to escalate very quickly.
    this is not my pissy mood.
    quick to draw conclusions, aren't you?
    my aplogies, i am still quite inexperienced in debating. i will make sure to be personally offended and disrespect other people's opinions next time.
     
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  10. MyLastDreams

    MyLastDreams Well-Known Member

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    Since you mentioned CF ima assume no INT stats. I'd wonder why they would use it over Spirited Dance since the recovery would of been better and without the penalty. At the end of the day though im more of the mindset of "as long as your not constantly dying, your not useless".
     
  11. Yunan

    Yunan Not Enough Salt Elite Member

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    He wasn't being pissy at all, this is just an acquired tone of people that have been here on the forum for a long time, dealing with all the poop asobimo and the community gives. Sarcastic and passive aggressive response happens from time to time. It's often only 50% serious and 50% just to throw some salt. So its best not to be easily triggered or seinsitive with whatever the veterans were saying. Just because he's stating contradictory opinion from yours doesn't mean he replied to you in particular


    Then regarding mana recharge, my response would also be "cool". I appreciate little stuff that helps the party, something like gloria or stoneskin, or even royal heal. But before mana recharge I would like to get high cycle, quick motion and brave aura first. Casting those skills alone would be quite time consuming especially if you get hit here and there and needed to re-cast often. These auras can be used with multiple players' cooperation. Like the mage can cast brave aura, high cycle and quick motion, the bow user can cast magic barrier and mana recharge and the tank can cast warc cry. The idea of full support is not that prospective because those support skills aren't limited to the so called supports.

    Imo if asobimo wants to enable full-support classes to be meta, they could lock those support skills on Magic Device, because almost no one use it as their main weapon for damage dealing characters and having those support skills locked on MD would also enable MD main to be used and have worth in a party
     
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  12. Unetéro Kenora

    Unetéro Kenora Well-Known Member

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    "if people are arguing that another glass cannon dps is better because more dps, they should summon their decoy shot with a smite tag for more dps and furry off."
    This, not only your entire text seemed like and Indirect response, this just did it for me, It's hard to not think you were Not being indirectly answering me like that.
    If that's not really the case then my bad, Your text just doesn't Helps believe the contrary.

    "and if 25% of 1 character carries 25% of the whole party's dps, then something is wrong with the non-support characters"
    Not talkin about support, Mana recharge only, despite the majority of your text adresing sups.. Okey.

    "quick to draw conclusions, aren't you?"
    "my aplogies, i am still quite inexperienced in debating. i will make sure to be personally offended and disrespect other people's opinions next time."

    Your text doesn't help If you worded like an indirect to me, It's just too much of a coincidence.
    But since I apparently interpreted wrong (Not totally my fault honestly), Then sorry for the 'little' confusion.
    This started out of nowhere, lol.

    The way He wrote and worded things could easily be interpreted wrongly by anyone anywhere, I'm also a Veteran in this game, but if people here act like this then I really don't expend enough time on the Forums to know.
    also, I'm used to being attacked by some stupid people, So It's quite hard not to assume it wasn't someone being passive aggressive towards me.

    This whole situation ended up being a bunch of Unfortunate misunderstandings by me.. ._.)
    and yeh, we agree on being pissed at asshobimo. That's kinda of the main reason I complained about supps? When I complain about this game I just want it to get better, since I like this game for so long now. I thought Fox was assuming I was 'Just Hating' or something. again I don't usually talk with very Honest people so hard to assume someone isn't being shitty on me sometimes. Thus creating situations I end up being poopy towards someone.. It's my fault.

    Sorry for the drama xD
     
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  13. erirya

    erirya Well-Known Member

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    The core problem is boss fights do not last long enough for the need of a support. Why take a support when a party full of DPS can kill a boss in under 1 minute. In this scenario, a "glass cannon" dps is and will always be better than a support character. Supports are great for a drawn out fight, but currently we do not have a boss that allows for supports to even shine. Hell, I will even take this a step further and propose that currently having anything but a full party of CF bow users and maybe a tank is not optimal.

    Your kinda childish retort of, "if people are arguing that another glass cannon dps is better because more dps, they should summon their decoy shot with a smite tag for more dps and furry off." falls flat when observing reality. Go to the anniversary gold coin farming event. Go observe the shouts. Attempt to get a party with a CF/tank then attempt to get a party with a no damage support. If you do, measure your boss times. The fastest I have seen a boss rush kill is 30-45 seconds with a party full of CFs and a tank. Now tell me, how would a support help in this situation besides being a determent or leech.

    Just a skill to recover your lost buffs will be sufficient. Supports are quite op in this game when we have a boss that allows for them to shine. Minstrel and dancer skills when combine can provide a party full of mp to spam skills with. I think your idea of a support of casting support buffs may not be optimal, because of the problem of being hit as you have stated. Honestly, I have seen a move in which the supporting role has kinda merged with the tanking role. My tank, has dancer skills for example to provide some amount of mp to the team. Also, I am looking at lowering the bosses dodge rate to hopefully reduce graze and misses when my party is attacking.
     
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  14. Unetéro Kenora

    Unetéro Kenora Well-Known Member

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    You mean like ad-lib? If so then I guess this could help, But I don't think Losing the Buffs you casted should even happen in anyway, You already are Loosing DPS Potential by putting Skill Points on Support tree, that should be the Balance of things, Support skills also take away your own damage for using them.
    There's too much penalties for very low Usefulness, Loosing the buffs when hit is just the golden Key to seal the Support Role Coffin.
    and then again, You can't heal, Buff or help someone if they Die in 1-2 hits from OP dumb broken bosses (No GSW included but there's that).
    It's truly funny that the best "support" experience I ever had was literally being some sort of ''Necromancer'' (Reviving da Ded people :v)
    Reworking the Damage system would Benefit all sorts of supports, not only healers (as I think I made look like only them would benefit), having one auto attack from amoeba kill you is just bullshit >->

    If not from all this problems then yeah, Supports would shine, and I would love to even play as a Support one day, if asobimo ever let's it exist for once.

    That's true, Support skill trees seems good only in select small bits, DPS can use High aura (was that the name?), Mages and tanks from the whole Heal skill tree, Etc etc... It's kinda like a puzzle with pieces that don't fit each other but other puzzles, it's so weird.

    and.. I legit don't know, Is minstrel and dancer doing Good as support classes? Since they are Book blocked I never bothered with these skills ._.
     
  15. tamaki_trash

    tamaki_trash Active Member

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    uh.. for dancer and minstrel it takes time to set up their full potential (minstrel much longer than dancer...)
    dancer skills provide good debuffs other than spirited (mp heal), elegant (i-frames) and, nature's wonders (aoe heal). charming and frenzy r useful.. tho frenzy is only for breaking bosses parts
    minstrel skills require at the minimum 2 minutes i believe?(correct me if I'm wrong) of straight playing to reach the song's full stack, so imo it's better for miniboss situations
     
  16. Red_Fox

    Red_Fox Master of the Ninja Kittens Super Likable Elite Member Epic Member

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    this is still about a Crossfire user casting Mana Recharge and how people would react to that. nobody asked for a full-support-no-damage chatacter.

    1 party member deals 25% less damage and everyone gets more mp in return, indirectly increasing the damage output.
    in the 3 vs 2 dps scenario, that's ~8% less party damage. but then it isn't, because the mp supply is likely greater than 8%, so the total party damage is higher, or at least equal and more convenient.

    losing the aura on getting hit also means that Crossfire stops charging.
    with or without Mana Recharge, getting hit is equally bad.
    and if Mana Recharge does end, so does the damage penalty and Crossfire does the same damage as usual.
    i see little to no difference between the two, and if that little difference is so significant, then putting Decoy Shot on smite must be an op game changer.
     
  17. Red Rosary

    Red Rosary Member

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    Right now we don't need a support, it useless. But toram online is departure from iruna and im sure they will improve the support skill, because in iruna support really important in party, be it levelling or farming. For example iruna minstrel, all iruna player need minstrel in their party even minstrel damage pretty useless, it because they have really really really really really useful buff that can make you OP. The most famous song Sweet Home that is usually used on farming boss or mob, can boost nearby party drop rate by 25% and boost CRT depending on user Lv. Maybe skill like that will come later
     
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  18. Unetéro Kenora

    Unetéro Kenora Well-Known Member

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    Kind of a Oof right here, 2 Minutes for full potential ._.
    I guess the good is that Minstrel is very versatile.

    I wonder why Iruna seems to have overall Better combat system and skills than it's successor Toram.
    Every time people bring Iruna to the conversation it feels like it is far better.
     
  19. Red Rosary

    Red Rosary Member

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    Tho i i feel bored with iruna gameplay cuz it too monotonous, and there is no manual evasion system in iruna -,-
     
  20. Amaymon

    Amaymon Well-Known Member

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    Might as well go all in. CF-Sat build, with Dex>Str stat, using katana as sub if you want to keep auras or just arrow for damage, and Brave Aura, High Cycle, and Quick Motion as buffs. The equipment will be AMPR focus because of High Cycle and Quick Motion penalties. I have one reserve character for this. Instead of Mana Recharge, it will be more effective to directly buff other's movements without harming your own damage. Of course, if you still pick Mana Recharge, Brave Aura will at least be able to cover for it. Quick Motion buff is really addicting I gotta say.
     

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