How Toram Developers can make Mages Great Again

They could simply change motion speed for mage's magical skills to be max by default, because mages already have to deal with having to achieve extreme cspds up to 10k cspd in order to use spells instantly for almost all cspd based magical skills, an extra requirement of 50% motion speed in addition to 10k cspd to be at top performance is a double whammy and huge disadvantage for mages placing them at a 2x disadvantage in terms of speed when compared to their physically based peers who only need to reach 50% motion speed and are not burdened by an extra speed requirement unlike mages, so it would only be balanced for mages to only need to focus on cspd in the same manner that their physically based peers only need to focus on motion speed, also perhaps reducing the crit formula of magic in half to only need 200 crit, 400 crit requirement is quite ridiculous as it forces mages to use only very specific playstyles in order to achieve decent critical probabilities and thus reduce diversity because many mages would only use those very specific playstyles, not because they want to use those very specific playstyles, but because they are forced to use those very specific playstyles because they have no other options for decent critical probabilities, also 200 crit requirements for magical skills seems reasonably balanced because magical skills never misses unlike physically based skills, Those are suggestions that toram developers could implement to achieve true balance, feel free to add in more suggestions that toram developers could implement to achieve true balance and bring mages up to par.

 

You have good points, however there are players that can achieve max motion speed without gsw such as dw and combat knife-using samurai etc, so i believe that mages should also be able to have max motion speed without having to use gsw, also for cspd i think cspd should scale with dex to the same degree that aspd does with agi, which would make attaining 7.8k+ cspd ((sweet spot for burst)) easy with just 250+ dex with a few cspd crystals in equipment, and yeah it would be nice for dte adjustment to allow mages to not rely so much on magical crit, guess we will have to see how much the dte change would change the reliance of mages on magical crit when it is released.

 

1- "Just use GSW[..]" And die in one hit.
GSW should not be the main skill everyone uses when the game, each update, pushes for faster and faster bosses than the combat system was ever made to handle and never balanced for(I can expand on this point if needed but this gonna be a Long boi' already, TLDR At end) We don't get that many bosses that let you see their AOE's for several seconds before attacking anymore, some of them briefly showing the AOE then immediately attacking next, barely allowing a reaction, and then some don't have warnings at all, instead just having unpredictable (at first time anyway) attacks you Will die to, either because of unclear/recicled animations making it unpredictable or literally just having the boss snap into an attack animations when previously busy with another, without any warning, instantly.
as the boss design is dropping in quality, and now many of them just kill you out of nowhere, no warnings or reasonable counterplay- Speed should be severely adjusted to properly even the fights.
All this to say... Sure, GSW can give you near max speed, And if bosses are just going to one shot you Anyway; as their damage also increases to ludicrous numbers, then, well, why Not use GSW, the fact GSW is so popular is a testament to what I've bedn saying for a while; who cares about surviving and hp when each and every boss attack deals 5x your HP or even more (Without GSW), fractional damage, Spikes, all that "Fun" stuff.. might aswell use GSW as you literally don't get any less of a disadvantage than you already find yourself in :/
Technically speaking, Thats not a bad sugestion. but only because the balancing is so uspide down it allows GSW to be virtually free of draw backs. If I use it I die in one hit? oh... Anyway- it shouldn't be the answer to lack of ASPD for everyone.
I think just intantly having mages at 50% Speed by default is way too much, even for my standards for the balancing, this is beyond broken. So no. But it remains that speed Needs to be raised in some way, Slugish characters are death sentences in modern Toram, or highly inefficient otherwise, that's just the trend, my proposal would be to make every class get some kind of G r e a t, Slowly increasing ASPD gain based on levels, or total stats, idk exactly, something to make early game not be ridiculously easy, and late game Fast as it should to put players in a better spot. those that really need to be Not-Slugs getting bigger ASPD/CSPD, so you don't just go bonkers early on with the slower bosses, and get acceptable ASPD/CSPD Late game for the Cocained bosses, so you don't have to spend *m i l l i o n s* on Speed crystas and be forced into skills that you need, but narrow down Playstyle options (supports buffs are gone in one hit, you die in one hit with GSW, etc), the trend that everyone should be glass canon or punished for not playing literally perfectly is really inflexible.
The fact that speed in general is so heavily penalised is also a huge indicator of how toram was never made to be a fast game, for real; Speed is extremely expensive/Rare, CSPD especially having Miserable scalling in levels and stats, and Speed skills having their own ✨special✨penalties, +The sacrifice you are already doing of trading damage for more speed you already are comiting to.
For a game increasingly going fasty pace (toram isnt fast pace, but it's getting fast-pace-Ish) thats too much punishment for speed. It's unreasonable penalties for speed that might have been once reasonable in old days.


2- Asobimo just slapping more damage into mages instead of addressing the fundamental problems with bosses going bonkers and players still having old standards of Sluggish animations and Punitive speed is not exactly a good alternative.. Sure, Mages will be damage Bombs, They will still be terribly slow and unrewarding to play with all the same. Having 2x worse slug syndrom due to Cast mechanic. It seriously sucks to play mage.
That's to say, Asobimo is giving out Damage Band-Aids, its not going to help with the fundamental problems, even if mages become insane damage bombs they remain just as clunky, and thats bad balancing.

I have a lot to say on this, a full analysis really, its no news that "Asobimo Bad™-But their balancing has been the 'Fancy' awful with Toram these recent years, They are trying to push a mid pace game to be faster than it is fundamentaly built to be, they still think it's fine to make players slow while making much stronger bosses that would require much faster/durable/mobile Characters to match, frankly it's like we have one set of developers going crazy with bosses in one room, and Another team of devs completely unaware of each other, making slow ass skills still. who still thinks toram has slow bosses like old times and therefore balance players to be punished heavily if they seek speed, as if the game is still slow like before.

The game itself needs a soft rework IMO, not to become a Hyper adrenaline Fast pace super game, I still want Toram to be *Toram,* Just revise their core mechanics, as they are getting pushed above what it was ever intended.

(By fundamentals I mean stuff like Having to stand still and recover your Mana resource by auto attacking/Standing still to recharge, AMPR, mana being counted on tiny sections of bars, making the recovery of basic resource for using skills Slow, and if facing fast bosses, spamming dashes, defensive skills or whatever else is gonna quickly drain MP, its no viable way to deal with the fast bosses [If you aren't kirito player at least] Mobility Being clunky, the fact you **W a l k** in battle, WALK, Not run like bowguns do, Walk. The player, in speed therms, is half-asleep while the modern bosses are high on coffee and cocaine.
The literal Core of the game.
Ofc My experiences only speak for Me but please consider it. Not saying the game is Unplayable, Playing the game just doen't feel as fun with those unbalanced aspects in place, you can still, Technicaly, play it, but its not as enjoyable anymore.

Also, ofc, the game experience can be Night and Day depending on which class you play.. Mage feels like Hardcore Hellmode, Kirito, Bow and Gunner feel more fair and balanced in comparison to the modern bosses.

***TL;DR: the game was never made to have these super fast fights, its being pushed to be faster than its whole Balance and Systems where made to be, and suffers for it, Speed being one important aspect for Players who were meant to be slower in old days, now needs to be significantly easier to access to make up for the new cocaine fast bosses. It should be scalled so it doesn't make the game easy mode for early game, when you are fighting old bosses, but become great later as you encounter faster bosses.
most attempts to fix the game and balance classes will just be Cheap band aids until Asobimo revises the whole system to fit the new trend of Faster fights, Which is fine by me as long as done well and fair.
+The meta of everyone having to use "Get hit and you die/lose buffs" skills, makes the skill and attention required to be at maximum as you *CANNOT make mistakes,* and this kind of requirement being highly stressful to play, really shouldn't be the norm for literally everyone. Everyone is a one shot now, which isn't fun or healthy for the game, try to play support for those 1hit chars, its pain.

Sorry for the bible, this is in part me unloading what I have been thinking for a while. I hope this serves some purpose, I honestly believe what I'm saying here, Again I'm fine with the Game getting faster as long as its balanced in doing so, which Right now it's far from it.

 

Those are spot on with addressing the root issues with speeds beyond the band-aid solution of "oh just use gsw on the ultra fast bosses, and die if there is even a slight error" that need to be reworked and fixed, also those are spot on about how the toram developers could fix those root issues about bringing lategame players up to sufficiently high speeds to match ultra fast bosses while keeping the beginning balanced and beginner friendly for earlygame players, if the developers weren't so oblivious to those root issues!!

 

Well, yeah, kinda like food really; might not be my favorite, but its what we have today for dinner xD
There's not much to do, I just felt like addressing the deeper issues, as I have been deeply thinking on these things for a while and needed to share it, so ty for hearing me out

 

Those new skills can give rise to mage class

 

Yeah, but i think its only for cannon & burst since that skill only give boost for those skills. If it boost MCRT of other magic skill for 3 minute, it would be crazy....

 

Well, i dunno about that. If Qadal can boost magic crit for every magic skill. Finale would be able to dish insane damage...(you dont need to invest on CRT stat mean you get more int and more damage)

 

Mages can't keep up because of the lack of proration and speed overall.
Other physical builds just have to use GSW/QA and some other boosts,(literally Warcry or Kairiki) with both having fast animations at full stacked GSW.
If you wanna talk about Brave Aura, only one party member has to cast it. Yes, its either the support character, or the MAGE(if no mage ofc the BWG/BW).
"My CSPD isn't enough", okay, I'll cast High Cycle.
"My char has low ASPD growth", okay, I'll cast Quick Motion.
(You were too busy casting support skills while the boss already died lol)

Physical builds can spend their time auto-attacking the target while gaining mana, two birds with one stone(Proration+AMPR)
If the mage casts quick motion to keep up with motion speed, they lose AMPR

"Mages don't need AMPR, they have MP Charge."
NO. YOU SPEND ATLEAST 2 SECONDS(with Maximizer, and YES I FCKIN CALCULATED IT) to heal your whole mana bar while other party members have Kairiki/Trigger Slash/Rampage/Shukuchi/Kirito/TwinStorm/Decoy Shot to heal themselves but at the same time, they prorate.
The physical ones don't really need to full their mana bar because their skills aren't that costly to use.
Not only did you waste time recharging mana, you'll use double the time to cast Magic Knife just to prorate, won't that suck?

If only CSPD could also affect casting animation speed to some extent where Quick Motion/GSW wont be obsolete for budget mage builds, that will be beautiful as you guys say, the current meta is all about S P E E D.

If Magic Knife could somehow automatically activate every time we use MP Charge and Maximizer, the problem regarding proration would be mitigated.

 

Im usually using nemesis for prorate, it give normal prorate.

 

Waste of SP(imo) I'm telling you. Unless you're a Knux/MD user or a StaffFu(borderline OK), it's all good.
My point is, that proration you're saying only applies on the first hit of the first cast and the first hit of the release cast(according to Coryn.Club, correct me if I'm wrong), and when do you always cast this skill? you cast it every 20 stacks and if you don't have proper additional melee/magic equips, it takes forever. Plus, most new bosses move around or have high dodge that requires at least 100 CRT to be able to hit that thing(or Mind's Eye Combo tag, alright cool.) since the first hit is a physical one, thus hitting physical proration.

I'm not saying Nemesis is bad. If you know how to build around it; have the ability to recast and restack quickly(additional melee/magic/enchant spell or Asura Aura), it's a pretty good skill as you can always use it even if the boss moves a lot. You don't have to cast any support skill at all, you can even turn off your brain and still contribute on the party.

But what about Burst or Finale(Hello? Anyone?) builds? The upcoming Magic/Wizard Update is sure to give us more skills, but we won't be getting more SPs. Priest builds will be forced to focus on Nemesis while Burst or Finale(You guys haven't quit/reset yet?) builds will be forced(?) to remove Nemesis(if they have one) on their builds and I find the latter pretty nice. Most DTE Staff mages took nemesis for that flimsy proration and the bonus damage while being stacked along the course of the battle. But if you're in a fast-paced party(High Budget mofo's), you won't have enough time to fully stack the skill, so it is stuck as a support skill, and you waste 30 SP for it(of course it's a different scenario for Knux/MD or StaffFu builds).

 

Uh dude why every 20 stack? Tbh when im using a mage im not depending on just 1 skill. In my opinion, true mage didnt depend on just 1 magic skill. Im curious, have u tried mage? I have character for every class/job so i know their pros & cons. I think you should watch some mage playstyle videos on YT, how to properly use it.



As a mage your instant burst damage are lower than the other class. But u have more attack variety & utility (u can be support or even a tank). That instant burst damage problem can be solved with Qadal (Additional magic skill update on the stream)

Qadal give u instant 100% cannon charge & can work as impact to. And if its true that Qadal can boost magic critical, u dont need to depend on weakness ailment anymore. U can instantly use it, first manually use cannon then just use combo Qadal>cannon(smite)>Finale(smite). Cannon have 5 hits, so if 1 laser give u 600k (white damage) u would get instant 3m damage. If you have proper equipment u can get instant 8m damage (crit damage, 100% charge cannon). Honestly that Qadal should have been implemented when tier 4 (Magic : Burst) released.

And again, only use the combo above if u are fighting smallfry bosses (lower hp bosses that can be killed fast). If ur target isnt smallfry, u can mix many magic skill in ur arsenal.

Its the truth that mage isnt easy to use (i mean true mage here, not finale spammer). When its ur first time making a character, the system will tell u that using staff is Hard.

Thats all from me, sorry for my bad English.

 

Yes, you can't be more right with that. I only generalize the builds I mentioned since they usually revolve around one main DPS skill together with 2 or more DPS skills for rotation.


Nemesis builds I saw or heard of usually use Nemesis along with Cannon and Crash(like the vid you attached). They don't really have to cast high cycle or quick motion since CSPD isn't much a problem here. On the other hand, Burst builds uses Burst, Crash, Cannon and even Nemesis(in some cases) as their DPS rotation. And with the next skill update, Burst builds are going to be probably forced to drop Nemesis for the upcoming skills, or no, it's a do-your-own-build game after all.

 

I think ill reset my battle skill (i spend 30 sp to get secret chase atk), with my remaining sp i would have 45 sp. It would be enough to get Qadal, Over limit & Magic Control.

I dunno about a waste of sp or not to get nemesis since i dont even know how to spend those available sp lol. U can get more support skill or just waste some to get nemesis (its the same as u get SH & eternal nightmare), again it depend on your playstyle. Nemesis is good to kill smallfry mini boss, im using it to mk Teertocrit last time, luckily i got 1 xtall XD.

I dunno if peps know or not. When u are using maximizer after mp charge and u have rapid chargelv10 u just only need 1 sec and u would get MATK and Magic Pierce buff (it give u 300 flat matk if u already have 50% magic pierce), u will get max buff if u recover 1500 mp (this need clarification since the buff isnt always give the same amount, and i think it depend on how much mp recovered).

Actually the need to instantly recover mp is crucial for farming smallfry bosses that can be killed like 9-13 sec. Last night im farming ifrid i need to wait physical attacker using WCOS to recover mp after every run. If im the lead and i dont even care to wait for them, it would be annoying for them lol.

I dunno about nemesis build or burst build. I think its just people's mindset to focus on 1 skill then just said its XXX build lmao.

 

i could agree that the motion and cspd on mages are deadly. physical only needs motion, but there are a lot of issues too with physical such as it can be evaded. but i noticed that the devs are purposely making all mages powerful skills to be aoe. this is kinda issue tbh, since it can literally miss. they are making mages skill very very slow so that it has the chance to miss. like finale and crash skills coming down so slow, if the monster just walk slightly those skills can be evaded. another is that even if they dont need ampr since they have mp charge, mage itself consumes a lot more mana than any other classes that just bursting out a combo will require you to stand again and charge. but giviing mages an instant 50% motion is overkill. well it could help if they make the animation skills scale with aspd or cspd or even hit since magic skills are really slow to approach the enemy. i do think that the devs design the mages to be slow and heavy dealer in one cast and not spam skills like the physical class. they could revise how support skills and mage buffs work tho. im aware that support skills are made for magic and devs thinks that this skills are very useful and it really is quite good for their buffs tbh. but damn... those skills are hard to setup in a boss fight and again requires you mana charge again and again. really just hassle and can be really pitied compared to physicals buffs where its quick and instant, can be in combo and not be mana consuming. The 200 crit requirement for magic crit doesnt sound bad, but i think they made something more interesting with qadal skill later will explain.

i really think what problem with mage is the lack of scaling and lack of useful buff skills from magic related skills (wizard, priest, magic, magic blade). unlike physical wherein the stats have very useful stats such as stability, aspd, cpsd that scales as you put more into it, int doesnt have any useful stats (lets exclude the cdmg in physical and dte in int). maybe the max mp it gives is unique but tbh, they dont really scale or use that well in a battle especially if your max out already with your equipment.
One could change this issue if they give mages scaling from extra mana from the int stats (like giving multiplier to skills or just let mages pass the limit of max mp.... like calculate first the max mp you get with everything else upto 2k max mp then add the max mp you get from int stats).
Another idea what i think wouldn't hurt is giving int stats cspd stats. this makes mages not rely with dex or agi for cspd. and just like physical wherein the more str, agi and dex they put the more aspd they have, it will be the same with int this time with cspd. Now for the buffs skills, physical have so much powerful and useful skills. they literally have skills for crit rate, unsheath, short range, ampr, motion, atk, additional stats and many more that have better value than magic buffs. mages buffs are more on defensive side like stone barrier, ailment resistance, etc. that have really... less value since even the devs created a system that tanks and other pt members doesnt need that and yet still created that for waste of sp. I imagine that the devs are actually aiming for mages to be tanky a long time before but couldn't really put together since the meta(and tbh it is much better and needed in a boss raid) is fast and die in one shot, not slow and persist some damage... that is my opinion with how their buffs constantly healing and shielding, and especially with new equipments and xtall that gives the user more hp. And with the recent updates, I think devs are now actually noticing what are the problems with buffs skills to dps mages. an actual buff to your stats and damage buff(with instant cast) and not gimmick buffs like holy book, stone barrier, the dog shit cat, etc.
qadal is quite interesting since it looks like, the buff makes your magic crit be guaranteed. from the looks of it, the character they use only have 25 crit. im guessing that the magic knife actually goes thru physical calculation since even after casting qadal, magic knife is still not doing guaranteed crits. so that means all skills, as long as it goes thru magic calculation is affected by the buff(with how the laser doing crits and magic knife not). But this is asobimo. that is too good to be thru... i think there is a catch in this. such as lower cdmg or even capping the cdmg that it multiplies.

 

I agree with your additional suggestions about how they can bring mages up to par, such as scaling magical skills motion speed with cspd, i also agree that scaling motion speed with cspd instead of aspd for magical skills would really help mages alot with motion speed issues, i also agree that int needs to provide more benefits to magical skills and users in a similar manner that dex str along with agi does for physical skills and users, such as int providing cspd etc, and yes i agree that the new upcoming magical skills such as qadal does look interesting, we can only hope that they could resolve some of the issues that mages have while we await for the devs to hopefully read our suggestions to also implement in the near future or that they somehow coincidentally come to the conclusion of having the same ideas of bringing mages up to par and implement them even without reading our suggestions!!, 10k cspd for max motion speed in magical skills along with proper scaling of magical stats including changing magical critical requirements to be 200 instead of 400 would greatly help bring mages up to par with their physically based peers!!!

 

Maybe nonproactiveness by the player community is the reason why mages always keep getting stepped on by the developers, and maybe we should all be more proactive and try to convince other players that nonstop suggesting to the developers for a rebalance regarding mage's motion speed might just work, if we can get enough people on board with nonstop suggesting to the developers about fixing mage's motion speed, Then maybe just maybe it can happen!!

https://toramonline.com/index.php?threads/motion-speed-rebalance-suggestions.53305/

 

And like they say a silent nonproactive majority is often a large group that will comply with anything regardless of how many unfair disadvantages that they had before, have now, and will recieve!!, for example if they were offered a trade in for a luxurious mansion that is under the sovereignty of the HOA((Home Owner's Association)), they would get that mansion only after they have traded in their homes for that mansion, all deals are final and cannot be reversed nor reimbursed in any manner and that the mansion can only be resold under the approval of both the HOA including the Officials in Power, and that the mansion is under an extremely strict HOA guidelines and rules including massive penalties and fines for each and every single violation ((the HOA in question would be extremely aggressive with absolute enforcement of all their extremely strict guidelines and rules)), also in this example, officials in power would be partners of the HOA and can ensure that all penalties and fines against violators are guaranteed for each and every violations, the silent nonproactive majority would probably accept that offer knowing that the HOA rules and guidelines are strict to the point that even just the mere act of cooking their own/other's food or even owning/renting/borrowing/using/parking a car that runs on gas or looking at their own mansion in a peculiar way etc can get themselves massively fined and penalized along with them being aware of the fact that the officials in power would guarantee that the HOA fines and penalties are enforced at maximum force without contest!!

 

Personally i view gsw as a pretty stupid gimmick and forcing certain weapons to rely on gsw for optimal performance is a horrible way to do balancing furthermore weapons that rely
on gsw are nothing but liabilities unless they provide a necessary non-combat related niche such as vortex synth blacksmithing etc and until a proper rebalance regarding motion speed happens which i highly doubt would ever happen unless of course the silent majority finally realizes that gsw is a dumb gimmick and they finally request a proper rebalance on motion speed to the devs in which gsw becomes nonessential for all weapons to perform optimally, until then i will just keep using weapons that have proven to reliably attain max motion speed without gsw ((Dw,Combat Knife Ktn,Knx,Ohs,etc)) its much less of a hassle that way

 

imo gsw should be reworked to have the same negative effect as the new wizard elemental dmg buff, but with more hp drained, something like: gsw stacks make you loose 1%/3%/5% hp of max hp each skill used
and this dmg can kill you, idk if would be good to keep the extra dmg taken
this at least would remove the idea of 1hp strats and make healers and vampiric combos a thing
and for a extra balance nerf vampiric recovery by half (or more), but increase its healing power by 1% for each vit point